Page 9 of 22
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:21 pm
by FKAS
Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:06 pm
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:58 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:04 pm
...I think so. But he isn't consistently very good imo, but then neither are quins.
How often do you watch Quins? It’s fair to say Dombrandt has the occasional quiet game, but I’d argue he is consistently very good, even when Quins are not.
For a player who is mostly complimented for his attacking skill set, he is way more influential in defence than he’s given credit for. He regularly comes up with big turnovers and recently has been good at disrupting opposition mauls.
Interesting that. It's perception again. An 'occasional quiet game' to you (who sees far more of him than me) has seemed several times to me to be disappearing when he should not. That leads me to jump to the conclusion that he might not be up for it at international level when it gets tough.
Your further comments about defence and 'mixing it' probably mean that I am wrong about him - possibly prejudiced because I rate Simmonds highly. Perhaps, neither has been used properly for England so far and it's that simple.
I think Dombrandt's quiet moments are generally when Quins are under the pump, he seems to be a fairly passive tackler so when doing his part in defence he's not very noticeable unless he comes up with a turnover.
I'm willing to be won over but when Dombrandt is mentioned in an England context my mind immediately goes to that game Vs South Africa where he came off the bench and generally looked lost and gave a particularly dumb and lazy penalty when falling on a loose ball and the just lying there.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:39 pm
by Mikey Brown
Yeah I wasn’t being entirely serious on Dombrandt. If Mercer was available I’d question that he’s the form call maybe, but there’s just too many variables with a new squad, new coaches, Quins (as mentioned) being very up and down, to know who will hit the ground running with England.
Not having Smith to run off probably dented his highlights reel the last couple of months. Make of that what you will. The whole “going missing thing” is always so dependent on how a team are set up to play. I won’t pretend I’ve never had that thought with him though.
We’ve never seen Dombrandt play the up-the-guts role that Billy often does (or not with any success for England so far) but I’d like to think we can play a bit more of a balanced, heads up game that doesn’t leave players like Billy or Tuilagi running in to a wall of 4 defenders.
I would hope with carriers like Genge, Sinkler, Willis in close we could be optimistic enough to try and use this big fat guy’s absurd line-breaking ability a pass or two wider.
The passive tackler thing seems well out of date at this point. His England performance’s so far have been pretty ponderous though, and yes that SA performance was bad. I’d just like to see him get a shot (while the chance is available) in this new setup, away from toxic, evil, dictator Eddie and his oppressive regime, because he could be that X factor player that can turn games if he/we can do the necessary grunt work.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:30 pm
by Scrumhead
Some players look ‘to the manor born’ as soon as they make it on to the test scene, others take a bit more time to acclimatise and some don’t make it.
I think Dombrandt’s probably in the middle category. His England games so far haven’t been worthy of note, but right now, we’re talking about 3 starts and 6 sub appearances at a poor point for England, so I think it’s a little early to write him off.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:36 pm
by Oakboy
The No 8 position!! Within the time frame to the RWC, is there time to fiddle? SB has decided to dump Billy V and not call up Tom Willis. Presumably, he has made a decision on who will get most of the 6N game time - Dombrandt or Simmonds. I just hope SB is decisive and gives his choice a run of games. Also, I really cannot see either as a sensible bench option for the simple reason that a back row with both in it will not work.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:59 pm
by Mikey Brown
I liked the look of Willis in the fairly brief time he held down the Wasps 8 shirt, but you seem to keep referring to him like he’s a proven international 8? He could well be the best in the long run, he’s a very good athlete and all rounder, but he has 0 caps and Borthwick has little access or ‘body of work’ (I know) to refer to.
I’d agree I can’t see a long term 23 with both Simmmonds and Dombrandt in. Hopefully we see enough of a settled side to make more of a real judgement on at least one of them.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:09 pm
by Banquo
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:58 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:04 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:59 pm
Dombrandt was very good at the weekend, i thought. I'm sure he'll be at 8.
...I think so. But he isn't consistently very good imo, but then neither are quins.
How often do you watch Quins? It’s fair to say Dombrandt has the occasional quiet game, but I’d argue he is consistently very good, even when Quins are not.
For a player who is mostly complimented for his attacking skill set, he is way more influential in defence than he’s given credit for. He regularly comes up with big turnovers and recently has been good at disrupting opposition mauls.
not as much as you, so argue away. When I`ve seen him he`s been between very good and average in the same game, and not even that for England. Maybe Quins fans give him more credit than others? certainly on this thread
. Anyhow, he is skilful, and as said three times, I`d start him.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:31 pm
by p/d
I for one am looking forward to seeing Big Al get a run at it under a new coach and with the influence of Evans orchestrating the backs and our leaden footed captain. Throw Curry and Willis into the mix then happy days.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:35 pm
by Banquo
p/d wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:31 pm
I for one am looking forward to seeing Big Al get a run at it under a new coach and with the influence of Evans orchestrating the backs and our leaden footed captain. Throw Curry and Willis into the mix then happy days.
Me too. That’s why I’d pick him, oddly
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:39 pm
by Timbo
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:13 pm
I totally agree with your last sentence.
I’m biased in the other direction, but I feel like Simmonds gets more allowances made because of his try scoring record. The thing is. he’s been nowhere near as influential for Exeter of late and without the tries and highlight reel moments, he’s a small 8 who requires compromises to be made to accommodate him. I don’t think the same is true for Dombrandt.
Agree with everything you’ve said about Dombrandt. I actually think he’s a player that steps up when the going gets tough for Quins, big turnovers in his own 22, linebreaks or just something big to turn the momentum. I’m very hopeful that given a run for England he’ll prove to be a really good test player.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:42 pm
by p/d
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:35 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:31 pm
I for one am looking forward to seeing Big Al get a run at it under a new coach and with the influence of Evans orchestrating the backs and our leaden footed captain. Throw Curry and Willis into the mix then happy days.
Me too. That’s why I’d pick him, oddly
Funny isn’t it. I share all the same concerns as you…….. and yet. Mind you I am ignoring the calls for back row-cum-lock Chessum being in the mix
Re: Squad named
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:51 pm
by Banquo
Timbo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:39 pm
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:13 pm
I totally agree with your last sentence.
I’m biased in the other direction, but I feel like Simmonds gets more allowances made because of his try scoring record. The thing is. he’s been nowhere near as influential for Exeter of late and without the tries and highlight reel moments, he’s a small 8 who requires compromises to be made to accommodate him. I don’t think the same is true for Dombrandt.
Agree with everything you’ve said about Dombrandt. I actually think he’s a player that steps up when the going gets tough for Quins, big turnovers in his own 22, linebreaks or just something big to turn the momentum. I’m very hopeful that given a run for England he’ll prove to be a really good test player.
Fair do’s. Does he coast the rest of the time then
Find it quite odd that regular watchers find themselves at opposite ends of an opinion about a player- I’m in the middle, waiting to be convinced he’s going to be a top intl.
Anyway, hope he’s picked and is fantastic.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:42 am
by Mellsblue
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:35 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:31 pm
I for one am looking forward to seeing Big Al get a run at it under a new coach and with the influence of Evans orchestrating the backs and our leaden footed captain. Throw Curry and Willis into the mix then happy days.
Me too. That’s why I’d pick him, oddly
That’s the spirit. Chucking everything at it and let the oppo worry about us. To which end, I’d pick Furbank and RICH LANE!!! at 15. That’ll make ‘finishers’ look as bland a concept as a Westlife single. Against all odds, it might just work.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:43 am
by Oakboy
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:59 pm
I liked the look of Willis in the fairly brief time he held down the Wasps 8 shirt, but you seem to keep referring to him like he’s a proven international 8? He could well be the best in the long run, he’s a very good athlete and all rounder, but he has 0 caps and Borthwick has little access or ‘body of work’ (I know) to refer to.
I’d agree I can’t see a long term 23 with both Simmmonds and Dombrandt in. Hopefully we see enough of a settled side to make more of a real judgement on at least one of them.
I advocate T Willis because I think he is potentially the best No 8. The debate over the others does cover claims that nobody has stood up sufficiently to be counted for England and, in Dombrandt's case, hints (rightly or wrongly) that he is lacking in 80 minute application in some games. That is the area where I think Willis will prove the best. His graft and character shine through (in club games anyway) no matter what the game situation.
In the last seven years, and especially in the last three, England performances have featured constant under-performance. Clarity of approach is a big factor in SB's message and I accept the implied criticism of his predecessor in highlighting that. The other big factor for me was the tendency for some players to be in cruise mode, possibly because of lack of clarity but also, IMO, a lack of out-and-out doggedness/determination to not be beaten, no matter what the coaching failures. I'd pick both Willises to provide that basic gutsiness ahead of all the others. Not far behind are Lawes and both Currys but I see the other candidates further back.
Of course, if SB gets everything right, priorities might change. For example, Dombrandt's hands and attacking linking could be a top requirement IF the rest of the pack are performing as a full-firing unit. The same could apply to Simmonds' pace, breakaway skills and try-scoring habits.
I can understand why SB backs his own ability to get the best out of the pack as a unit by betting on Dombrandt or Simmonds to complement it. I err on the pessimistic side of the debate in wanting that extra bit of dog in the back row by wanting T Willis at 8. If SB has gone a step further by deciding that his choices are better short-term prospects who am I to argue?
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:13 am
by p/d
Silly question, but when did Tom Willis last play?
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:58 am
by FKAS
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:13 am
Silly question, but when did Tom Willis last play?
Dec 30th in a win over Montpellier. Good point he may be injured.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:40 pm
by Scrumhead
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:43 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:59 pm
I liked the look of Willis in the fairly brief time he held down the Wasps 8 shirt, but you seem to keep referring to him like he’s a proven international 8? He could well be the best in the long run, he’s a very good athlete and all rounder, but he has 0 caps and Borthwick has little access or ‘body of work’ (I know) to refer to.
I’d agree I can’t see a long term 23 with both Simmmonds and Dombrandt in. Hopefully we see enough of a settled side to make more of a real judgement on at least one of them.
I advocate T Willis because I think he is potentially the best No 8. The debate over the others does cover claims that nobody has stood up sufficiently to be counted for England and, in Dombrandt's case, hints (rightly or wrongly) that he is lacking in 80 minute application in some games. That is the area where I think Willis will prove the best. His graft and character shine through (in club games anyway) no matter what the game situation.
In the last seven years, and especially in the last three, England performances have featured constant under-performance. Clarity of approach is a big factor in SB's message and I accept the implied criticism of his predecessor in highlighting that. The other big factor for me was the tendency for some players to be in cruise mode, possibly because of lack of clarity but also, IMO, a lack of out-and-out doggedness/determination to not be beaten, no matter what the coaching failures. I'd pick both Willises to provide that basic gutsiness ahead of all the others. Not far behind are Lawes and both Currys but I see the other candidates further back.
Of course, if SB gets everything right, priorities might change. For example, Dombrandt's hands and attacking linking could be a top requirement IF the rest of the pack are performing as a full-firing unit. The same could apply to Simmonds' pace, breakaway skills and try-scoring habits.
I can understand why SB backs his own ability to get the best out of the pack as a unit by betting on Dombrandt or Simmonds to complement it. I err on the pessimistic side of the debate in wanting that extra bit of dog in the back row by wanting T Willis at 8. If SB has gone a step further by deciding that his choices are better short-term prospects who am I to argue?
I’ll start by saying I’m a huge fan of Tom Willis. I’d have had him in the squad and I would definitely have considered starting him, but he’s not there so it’s kind of a moot point.
One thing I do want to call out is the inconsistency of how players are judged. I think there are some unfair perceptions re. Dombrandt’s 80 minute ‘application’ that are at best debatable.
When I look at his England performances, I see 3 starts, 6 sub appearances without a huge amount of impact, apart from the Wales game where he stood out in a poor team performance. We’re questioning that, but we all (yes, me included) regard Jack Willis as having proved himself already when his record is actually very similar.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:59 pm
by Puja
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:40 pmWhen I look at his England performances, I see 3 starts, 6 sub appearances without a huge amount of impact, apart from the Wales game where he stood out in a poor team performance. We’re questioning that, but we all (yes, me included) regard Jack Willis as having proved himself already when his record is actually very similar.
While I agree that JWillis hasn't exactly got a long, proven history of internationals, I recall him impressing every time he's managed to get on the pitch for more than 2 seconds.
Puja
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:18 pm
by Banquo
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:40 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:43 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:59 pm
I liked the look of Willis in the fairly brief time he held down the Wasps 8 shirt, but you seem to keep referring to him like he’s a proven international 8? He could well be the best in the long run, he’s a very good athlete and all rounder, but he has 0 caps and Borthwick has little access or ‘body of work’ (I know) to refer to.
I’d agree I can’t see a long term 23 with both Simmmonds and Dombrandt in. Hopefully we see enough of a settled side to make more of a real judgement on at least one of them.
I advocate T Willis because I think he is potentially the best No 8. The debate over the others does cover claims that nobody has stood up sufficiently to be counted for England and, in Dombrandt's case, hints (rightly or wrongly) that he is lacking in 80 minute application in some games. That is the area where I think Willis will prove the best. His graft and character shine through (in club games anyway) no matter what the game situation.
In the last seven years, and especially in the last three, England performances have featured constant under-performance. Clarity of approach is a big factor in SB's message and I accept the implied criticism of his predecessor in highlighting that. The other big factor for me was the tendency for some players to be in cruise mode, possibly because of lack of clarity but also, IMO, a lack of out-and-out doggedness/determination to not be beaten, no matter what the coaching failures. I'd pick both Willises to provide that basic gutsiness ahead of all the others. Not far behind are Lawes and both Currys but I see the other candidates further back.
Of course, if SB gets everything right, priorities might change. For example, Dombrandt's hands and attacking linking could be a top requirement IF the rest of the pack are performing as a full-firing unit. The same could apply to Simmonds' pace, breakaway skills and try-scoring habits.
I can understand why SB backs his own ability to get the best out of the pack as a unit by betting on Dombrandt or Simmonds to complement it. I err on the pessimistic side of the debate in wanting that extra bit of dog in the back row by wanting T Willis at 8. If SB has gone a step further by deciding that his choices are better short-term prospects who am I to argue?
One thing I do want to call out is the inconsistency of how players are judged. I think there are some unfair perceptions re. Dombrandt’s 80 minute ‘application’ that are at best debatable.
Its cos he ermm...looks like he could do with a bit more conditioning, perhaps? and again, that might be unfair.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:54 pm
by chris18501
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:23 pm
by Scrumhead
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:59 pm
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:40 pmWhen I look at his England performances, I see 3 starts, 6 sub appearances without a huge amount of impact, apart from the Wales game where he stood out in a poor team performance. We’re questioning that, but we all (yes, me included) regard Jack Willis as having proved himself already when his record is actually very similar.
While I agree that JWillis hasn't exactly got a long, proven history of internationals, I recall him impressing every time he's managed to get on the pitch for more than 2 seconds.
Puja
But that’s kind of my point … I always feel like I’m starting from a positive place with Jack Willis. I’m either in he mindset of being really pleased he’s finally got a deserved chance or really pleased he’s back after injury. I think that means I’m pre-disposed to viewing his performance positively rather than starting at an average point and asking him to impress me.
With Dombrandt, I’m usually starting from a point of doubt, thinking ‘come on Alex, be the player we see at Quins’ and then being a bit underwhelmed. I feel like I’m biased on a few levels.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:32 pm
by Banquo
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:23 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:59 pm
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:40 pmWhen I look at his England performances, I see 3 starts, 6 sub appearances without a huge amount of impact, apart from the Wales game where he stood out in a poor team performance. We’re questioning that, but we all (yes, me included) regard Jack Willis as having proved himself already when his record is actually very similar.
While I agree that JWillis hasn't exactly got a long, proven history of internationals, I recall him impressing every time he's managed to get on the pitch for more than 2 seconds.
Puja
But that’s kind of my point … I always feel like I’m starting from a positive place with Jack Willis. I’m either in he mindset of being really pleased he’s finally got a deserved chance or really pleased he’s back after injury. I think that means I’m pre-disposed to viewing his performance positively rather than starting at an average point and asking him to impress me.
With Dombrandt, I’m usually starting from a point of doubt, thinking ‘come on Alex, be the player we see at Quins’ and then being a bit underwhelmed. I feel like I’m biased on a few levels.
Its weird that sort of bias isn't it? Mind, as I keep saying (stating the bleedin' obvious) Intl rugby is a whole new ball game- intensity, pressure, pace of game, and unfamiliar team mates and oppo (to some extent)...
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:36 pm
by Banquo
They were going well-ish until they got to front row; also no idea why they think the captain won't play.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:44 pm
by Puja
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:23 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:59 pm
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:40 pmWhen I look at his England performances, I see 3 starts, 6 sub appearances without a huge amount of impact, apart from the Wales game where he stood out in a poor team performance. We’re questioning that, but we all (yes, me included) regard Jack Willis as having proved himself already when his record is actually very similar.
While I agree that JWillis hasn't exactly got a long, proven history of internationals, I recall him impressing every time he's managed to get on the pitch for more than 2 seconds.
Puja
But that’s kind of my point … I always feel like I’m starting from a positive place with Jack Willis. I’m either in he mindset of being really pleased he’s finally got a deserved chance or really pleased he’s back after injury. I think that means I’m pre-disposed to viewing his performance positively rather than starting at an average point and asking him to impress me.
With Dombrandt, I’m usually starting from a point of doubt, thinking ‘come on Alex, be the player we see at Quins’ and then being a bit underwhelmed. I feel like I’m biased on a few levels.
That's a decent point. We're starting from different places of expectation with them, although one could argue JWillis has earned it by being ridiculous at club level.
I think expectations do affect what we see on a rugby pitch. It's been repeated so often by pundits and casual fans, that Cipriani was a god-tier fly-half and it was something outrageous that he wasn't being picked for England, that it's become an established fact, but I remember being so frustrated watching him have average club matches which other people would declare proof of his genius because he made two decent passes. They were watching for the good bits and feeling vindicated when they arrived and I was watching in expectation that he wouldn't live up to the encomium and marking him down for every mistep.
I should go back to doing the minute-by-minute recaps again. I stopped doing them, partly out of a lack of time (and because Amazon's system isn't conducive to the rewinding and pausing required to watch and commentate that way) and partly because I barely had the stomach to watch some of our latter performances once, let alone in microscopic detail, but I found they really challenged my assumptions around who had done well and badly. If we don't turn in utter drudge against Scotland, I'll see if I can make the time.
Puja
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:44 pm
by Puja
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:36 pm
They were going well-ish until they got to front row; also no idea why they think the captain won't play.
My thoughts too. Anyone who thinks that we won't be starting Genge needs their head examining.
Puja
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:59 pm
by p/d
That would be my starting front row.
Go Rodd-ers!!!
