SF v SA

[Insouciant]

I hope our game isn't over by 50 minutes like the game tonight. Damn. There's nothing on at the cinema tomorrow night either.

[Oakboy]

I hope our game isn't over by 50 minutes like the game tonight. Damn. There's nothing on at the cinema tomorrow night either.

Yes, one-sided non-contest despite Argentina's efforts. Sad for rugby when a SF is not competitive. Really bad if neither are.

[jngf]

Seems to me the business model of trying to sustain 10 English clubs on a professional basis is now a busted flush. I understand the loyalty and cultural attachment to supporting one’s club but is the end product actually delivering a sufficiently high standard of rugby ( rather than just a massive pension scheme for ex foreign internationals) and conveyor belt of test quality internationals? I’m far from convinced. I think we need to look at a provincial system like SA or Ireland - central RFU contracts then a group of 5 provinces tops: eg North West, North East, Midlands, West Country & London - 10 clubs is unsustainable from a financial perspective - Wasps and Worcester will not be the last to go belly up if the nettle isn’t grasped after this RWC imo

Further background: https://www.skysports.com/amp/rugby-uni ... istrations

[Banquo]

But that has failed for 20 years, hasn't it? Confidence is fickle. Our only way of winning over the last many months is to kick and chase with the decision-making shirts blocked by old hands. For three 6Ns we have won only two matches so I don't see where the confidence was going to come from by picking 'the best in each position today'. Sometimes confidence and competitiveness comes from a new group of players learning and evolving together. Losing in a group, developing in a group, improving in a group and finally winning in a group needs trying, IMO.

Let's face it, we all know that the best fifteen players from the Premiership picked today regardless of age aren't up to it. Maybe, though, an under-26 XV (say) might be up to it in four years time with the right enlightened coaching and acceptance of a 3 steps forward/2 back period.

I just don't see what we have to lose when the alternative is to sit back and hope that a player at a time emerges occasionally.

I think you should be blaming the execution rather than the principle. You cling very tightly to the belief that we have 23 intl class players hidden away somewhere, waiting to be picked and nurtured by the reincarnation of Carwyn James/Geech/Telfer if only they were picked and such a coaching team existed.

I've highlighted many times before the systemic issues in the English game, which has produced precious few top players in the purely pro era tbh; I've highlighted many times before how poor our coaching system is (as evidenced by most of our head coaches since SCW; the only coach who produced a decent run of results....Jones- who definitely did not fail for 3 to 4 years). If you can pick this group of rounded class English talent, excluding this squad, be my guest. We could almost certainly however pull in a coaching team that would get better out of what we have to be fair.

To produce a consistent high quality Intl side needs a root and branch change, including a proper pyramid, unified development pathways post 18 and way better coaching bottom up, top down. Chucking a lot of new young talent together is unlikely to cut it.

I don't suggest we have 23 international standard youngsters in the background but we might have 20-30 from whom 10-15 could develop into a high standard group alongside a dozen or so already around the squad. All I am suggesting is trying that rather than hoping for one or two to displace Youngs or Farrell. Evolutionary transition shirt-blocks.

a- so we have 12 already?
b- per previous point, if shirts are being blocked, you are not evolving, and whoever is running the show doesnt know what they are doing
c- 20-30 potl intls in senior rugby outside the current squad who are under the radar....hope so...

[Banquo]

I hope our game isn't over by 50 minutes like the game tonight. Damn. There's nothing on at the cinema tomorrow night either.

Yes, one-sided non-contest despite Argentina's efforts. Sad for rugby when a SF is not competitive. Really bad if neither are.

NZ were near perfect, amazing performance.

[Danno]

I think you should be blaming the execution rather than the principle. You cling very tightly to the belief that we have 23 intl class players hidden away somewhere, waiting to be picked and nurtured by the reincarnation of Carwyn James/Geech/Telfer if only they were picked and such a coaching team existed.

I've highlighted many times before the systemic issues in the English game, which has produced precious few top players in the purely pro era tbh; I've highlighted many times before how poor our coaching system is (as evidenced by most of our head coaches since SCW; the only coach who produced a decent run of results....Jones- who definitely did not fail for 3 to 4 years). If you can pick this group of rounded class English talent, excluding this squad, be my guest. We could almost certainly however pull in a coaching team that would get better out of what we have to be fair.

To produce a consistent high quality Intl side needs a root and branch change, including a proper pyramid, unified development pathways post 18 and way better coaching bottom up, top down. Chucking a lot of new young talent together is unlikely to cut it.

I don't suggest we have 23 international standard youngsters in the background but we might have 20-30 from whom 10-15 could develop into a high standard group alongside a dozen or so already around the squad. All I am suggesting is trying that rather than hoping for one or two to displace Youngs or Farrell. Evolutionary transition shirt-blocks.

a- so we have 12 already?
b- per previous point, if shirts are being blocked, you are not evolving, and whoever is running the show doesnt know what they are doing
c- 20-30 potl intls in senior rugby outside the current squad who are under the radar....hope so...

I'll play. But not going with the under the radar thing, more the youngsters and the overlooked that we can focus on with a big clearout.

Loosehead I do not know.
Dan+actually play Walker for a bit and then dump for McGuigan or something if they're rubbish, just stop riding George to a very early retirement
Collier, screw it, it's not like other THs are really good now
Chessum
Chessum the Younger
Hill to come back?
Pearson
Chandler Cunningham-South
Barbeary if he manages not to get a hernia from a big dinner or whatever happens next
Mercer and TWillis
Quirke to make a comeback else Gus Warr takes his place
F Smith/O. Bailey (whatever happened to him)
Radwan
Will Joseph/Seb Atkinson/Dan Kelly/Northmore
Guy Porter might (mightmightmight) kick on?
Freeman ffs, how is he being left out. Apparently he's a 13/14/15
Murley, maybe Lynagh
Would honestly look at Furbank or Carpenter at FB to indicate to Steward that he needs to round out his game a lot more than being Fazlet under kicks and offering little else (Arundell goes after the 6n, no more caps matey, sorry, and you've mostly had walkies)

I think a lot of the above have been looked at but largely under EJs "nah fuck off back to your club and work on your breakdown work Mr Wing" style of selection. See Carter Gordon for the most recent example of that.

[Lizard]

I hope our game isn't over by 50 minutes like the game tonight. Damn. There's nothing on at the cinema tomorrow night either.

Yes, one-sided non-contest despite Argentina's efforts. Sad for rugby when a SF is not competitive. Really bad if neither are.

On the other hand, we got four competitive QFs, which IIRC everyone fucking loved.

[Spiffy]

I hope our game isn't over by 50 minutes like the game tonight. Damn. There's nothing on at the cinema tomorrow night either.

Yes, one-sided non-contest despite Argentina's efforts. Sad for rugby when a SF is not competitive. Really bad if neither are.

NZ were near perfect, amazing performance.

Yes - great application,organization, discipline etc. but to be honest Argentina were well short of ideas, didn't fire a shot and never looked like breaching the fantastic AB defence. A bit of a training romp for NZ and for me something of a boring one sided contest just watching NZ rack up the points. Damp squibb of a semi.

[p/d]

I hope our game isn't over by 50 minutes like the game tonight. Damn. There's nothing on at the cinema tomorrow night either.

Yes, one-sided non-contest despite Argentina's efforts. Sad for rugby when a SF is not competitive. Really bad if neither are.

On the other hand, we got four competitive QFs, which IIRC everyone fucking loved.

Aye. Last weekend was a gem.

Nobody could have predicted how poor Aus were going to be nor, to a lesser extent, Wales would fold v Arg.

[jngf]

Wish we could call on Launchbury - his mauling ability and 130kg of beef would come in very handy today!

[Banquo]

Wish we could call on Launchbury - his mauling ability and 130kg of beef would come in very handy today!

....on the other hand, it would leave us short (ha ha) in the lineout, and hoping he's not under any restarts. 125 kg of rooted to the spot mauliness.

I like Joe a lot, but I think you are possibly over egging his ability....and he is available in fairness.

[Banquo]

Yes, one-sided non-contest despite Argentina's efforts. Sad for rugby when a SF is not competitive. Really bad if neither are.

NZ were near perfect, amazing performance.

Yes - great application,organization, discipline etc. but to be honest Argentina were well short of ideas, didn't fire a shot and never looked like breaching the fantastic AB defence. A bit of a training romp for NZ and for me something of a boring one sided contest just watching NZ rack up the points. Damp squibb of a semi.

I don't agree, NZ just didn't let Argentina play, and the first half hour was a masterclass. A couple of the kiwi counters were fantastic to watch with backs and forwards interacting brilliantly. You can only play what's in front of you #cliche

[Banquo]

I don't suggest we have 23 international standard youngsters in the background but we might have 20-30 from whom 10-15 could develop into a high standard group alongside a dozen or so already around the squad. All I am suggesting is trying that rather than hoping for one or two to displace Youngs or Farrell. Evolutionary transition shirt-blocks.

a- so we have 12 already?
b- per previous point, if shirts are being blocked, you are not evolving, and whoever is running the show doesnt know what they are doing
c- 20-30 potl intls in senior rugby outside the current squad who are under the radar....hope so...

I'll play. But not going with the under the radar thing, more the youngsters and the overlooked that we can focus on with a big clearout.

Loosehead I do not know.
Dan+actually play Walker for a bit and then dump for McGuigan or something if they're rubbish, just stop riding George to a very early retirement
Collier, screw it, it's not like other THs are really good now
Chessum
Chessum the Younger
Hill to come back?
Pearson
Chandler Cunningham-South
Barbeary if he manages not to get a hernia from a big dinner or whatever happens next
Mercer and TWillis
Quirke to make a comeback else Gus Warr takes his place
F Smith/O. Bailey (whatever happened to him)
Radwan
Will Joseph/Seb Atkinson/Dan Kelly/Northmore
Guy Porter might (mightmightmight) kick on?
Freeman ffs, how is he being left out. Apparently he's a 13/14/15
Murley, maybe Lynagh
Would honestly look at Furbank or Carpenter at FB to indicate to Steward that he needs to round out his game a lot more than being Fazlet under kicks and offering little else (Arundell goes after the 6n, no more caps matey, sorry, and you've mostly had walkies)

I think a lot of the above have been looked at but largely under EJs "nah fuck off back to your club and work on your breakdown work Mr Wing" style of selection. See Carter Gordon for the most recent example of that.

Its not that compelling really, is it. I mean, when you are stuck 1-3 its not a great start. Then moving on to 6 players who are known quantities....and so on. Where I do agree is there are some players in there- and you could have added Alex Coles- who definitely have talent (Mercer say) but have not broken through- chicken and egg of nature and nurture

[FKAS]

NZ were near perfect, amazing performance.

Yes - great application,organization, discipline etc. but to be honest Argentina were well short of ideas, didn't fire a shot and never looked like breaching the fantastic AB defence. A bit of a training romp for NZ and for me something of a boring one sided contest just watching NZ rack up the points. Damp squibb of a semi.

I don't agree, NZ just didn't let Argentina play, and the first half hour was a masterclass. A couple of the kiwi counters were fantastic to watch with backs and forwards interacting brilliantly. You can only play what's in front of you #cliche

I thought Argentina were a bit naive and possibly paid the price for picking a young 10. Five visits to the 22 for 3 points at one point in the first half. A more experienced flyhalf sees you're going nowhere and drops into the pocket. Applies a bit of scoreboard pressure and maybe forces the ABs to try their luck at the breakdown as apposed to biding their time. Maybe you get some more penalties in their half that way.

Doesn't help against the devastating counter attack game mind.

[Oakboy]

NZ were near perfect, amazing performance.

Yes - great application,organization, discipline etc. but to be honest Argentina were well short of ideas, didn't fire a shot and never looked like breaching the fantastic AB defence. A bit of a training romp for NZ and for me something of a boring one sided contest just watching NZ rack up the points. Damp squibb of a semi.

I don't agree, NZ just didn't let Argentina play, and the first half hour was a masterclass. A couple of the kiwi counters were fantastic to watch with backs and forwards interacting brilliantly. You can only play what's in front of you #cliche

NZ, in that form, will destroy a side that kicks too much. They have the nous to be patient (i.e. exchange a few kicks and wait for the opening). They have the skill to counter-attack brilliantly. They have the ruthlessness to capitalise on visits to the opposition 22.

Bearing in mind that they lost the opening match to France, are they peaking at the right time? In the past not doing so has been a failing.

Comparisons often mean little but that performance compared with ours (or Wales's) against Argentina provokes thought.

[Banquo]

Yes - great application,organization, discipline etc. but to be honest Argentina were well short of ideas, didn't fire a shot and never looked like breaching the fantastic AB defence. A bit of a training romp for NZ and for me something of a boring one sided contest just watching NZ rack up the points. Damp squibb of a semi.

I don't agree, NZ just didn't let Argentina play, and the first half hour was a masterclass. A couple of the kiwi counters were fantastic to watch with backs and forwards interacting brilliantly. You can only play what's in front of you #cliche

NZ, in that form, will destroy a side that kicks too much. They have the nous to be patient (i.e. exchange a few kicks and wait for the opening). They have the skill to counter-attack brilliantly. They have the ruthlessness to capitalise on visits to the opposition 22.

Bearing in mind that they lost the opening match to France, are they peaking at the right time? In the past not doing so has been a failing.

Comparisons often mean little but that performance compared with ours (or Wales's) against Argentina provokes thought.

Argentina didn't kick much tbh- NZ kicked 50% more, as they normally do.

[jngf]

Wish we could call on Launchbury - his mauling ability and 130kg of beef would come in very handy today!

....on the other hand, it would leave us short (ha ha) in the lineout, and hoping he's not under any restarts. 125 kg of rooted to the spot mauliness.

I like Joe a lot, but I think you are possibly over egging his ability....and he is available in fairness.

He’s actually taller than Itoje but granted not the athletic type of leaper that the former is. Martin will have to do as our grizzly bear enforcer

[Banquo]

Wish we could call on Launchbury - his mauling ability and 130kg of beef would come in very handy today!

....on the other hand, it would leave us short (ha ha) in the lineout, and hoping he's not under any restarts. 125 kg of rooted to the spot mauliness.

I like Joe a lot, but I think you are possibly over egging his ability....and he is available in fairness.

He’s actually taller than Itoje but granted not the athletic type of leaper that the former is. Martin will have to do as our grizzly bear enforcer

he's also terrible at restarts, whereas Itoje....

(short wasn't meant literally, to be clear)

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m so confident that I’ve put £10 on SA to score four tries in each half

[Beasties]

Feels like we’re hoping SA don’t break our fingernails as they push us over the precipice.

[16th man]

Yes - great application,organization, discipline etc. but to be honest Argentina were well short of ideas, didn't fire a shot and never looked like breaching the fantastic AB defence. A bit of a training romp for NZ and for me something of a boring one sided contest just watching NZ rack up the points. Damp squibb of a semi.

I don't agree, NZ just didn't let Argentina play, and the first half hour was a masterclass. A couple of the kiwi counters were fantastic to watch with backs and forwards interacting brilliantly. You can only play what's in front of you #cliche

NZ, in that form, will destroy a side that kicks too much. They have the nous to be patient (i.e. exchange a few kicks and wait for the opening). They have the skill to counter-attack brilliantly. They have the ruthlessness to capitalise on visits to the opposition 22.

Bearing in mind that they lost the opening match to France, are they peaking at the right time? In the past not doing so has been a failing.

Comparisons often mean little but that performance compared with ours (or Wales's) against Argentina provokes thought.

I reckon it's hard to tell if they are peaking or not. Even when they've been all over the place a bit in the last couple of years, they've been capable of sticking big scores on teams who play badly.

The spanking from SA in the build up, reasonably comfortable loss to France, and close win over an Ireland side who looked stuck in their own heads, show that a powerful pack and decent half backs trouble them still.

[Puja]

Yes - great application,organization, discipline etc. but to be honest Argentina were well short of ideas, didn't fire a shot and never looked like breaching the fantastic AB defence. A bit of a training romp for NZ and for me something of a boring one sided contest just watching NZ rack up the points. Damp squibb of a semi.

I don't agree, NZ just didn't let Argentina play, and the first half hour was a masterclass. A couple of the kiwi counters were fantastic to watch with backs and forwards interacting brilliantly. You can only play what's in front of you #cliche

NZ, in that form, will destroy a side that kicks too much. They have the nous to be patient (i.e. exchange a few kicks and wait for the opening). They have the skill to counter-attack brilliantly. They have the ruthlessness to capitalise on visits to the opposition 22.

Bearing in mind that they lost the opening match to France, are they peaking at the right time? In the past not doing so has been a failing.

Comparisons often mean little but that performance compared with ours (or Wales's) against Argentina provokes thought.

I actually thought New Zealand looked vulnerable when Argentina kicked - Arg got good ground from beating NZ to high balls and NZ's defence was disorganised thereafter. Their problem was more when Argentina tried to keep the ball and break the line - all of NZ's successes in the first half came from turnovers, knock-ons, and penalties in contact and at the ruck. I still think we'd lose, but oddly, I think our kick and clap would stand the best chance of turning them over.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m so confident that I’ve put £10 on SA to score four tries in each half

This was 80/1 so I’m really torn now

[astralweeks]

Rather optimistically I've got £5 on Freddie (25/1) scoring the first try working on the theory that England will start off strongly and then fold.

[p/d]

I’m so confident that I’ve put £10 on SA to score four tries in each half

This was 80/1 so I’m really torn now

Go and put £5 on England doing the same. Ease ya conscience