Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Epaminondas Pules]

Noted something in the last two senior games, which was the use of the call DISCO, because it is also a call that is used at England U18 and U20, but has a significant difference between the youth and seniors.

At age grade the call DISCO is used when someone spots that ‘it’s on’ and the focus is on spreading the ball and attacking. The call can be made anywhere. For example on our own line. You may remember Arundell’s length of the field try against Scotland U20s. Well just before the ball is moved to him the shout of DISCO goes up and the team reacts.

For the seniors DISCO means box kick. It’s practically the opposite.

It’s something that just tickled me as for the age grades DISCO means let’s play and for the seniors let’s not!

[Danno]

[p/d]

Anybody want Eddie back?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Nope

[p/d]

Good on Lawes, making the OPTA listing WC 15.

Billy on the bench

[Oakboy]

Billy on the beach

Sorted.

[Puja]

Good on Lawes, making the OPTA listing WC 15.

Billy on the bench

Lolwut

[Oakboy]

SB may not be the perfect guy to take us forward but he's one hell of a step up from his predecessor. How did the RFU ever get conned by the bloke 8 years ago? From the BBC website:

Monye says Jones' resignation is "not cool".

"I'm just really disappointed for so many different reasons," he added. "The reason he went into Australia was because Dave Rennie lost his job nine months ago.

"I remember watching one of his first interviews as a guy who was passionate and emotional and was crying on camera, saying what it means to come back and coach Australia as an Australian.

"Then you started hearing more than whispers that he was having conversations with Japan.

"He said he was definitely staying, so where has all the integrity gone?

"Rugby Australia took a gamble but they weren't at ground zero [under Dave Rennie]. There is no way they could have envisaged 10 months after they brought this guy in on a long-term deal that he would resign after bowing out of the World Cup pool stage for the first time in their history.

"This stinks and this is not cool.

"I interviewed loads of Aussie rugby fans in France and they said they were behind the players but not Eddie.

"In the last year, Eddie has lost the English rugby public and then the Australian rugby public in eight games. That's a remarkable skill."

[Banquo]

SB may not be the perfect guy to take us forward but he's one hell of a step up from his predecessor. How did the RFU ever get conned by the bloke 8 years ago? From the BBC website:

Monye says Jones' resignation is "not cool".

"I'm just really disappointed for so many different reasons," he added. "The reason he went into Australia was because Dave Rennie lost his job nine months ago.

"I remember watching one of his first interviews as a guy who was passionate and emotional and was crying on camera, saying what it means to come back and coach Australia as an Australian.

"Then you started hearing more than whispers that he was having conversations with Japan.

"He said he was definitely staying, so where has all the integrity gone?

"Rugby Australia took a gamble but they weren't at ground zero [under Dave Rennie]. There is no way they could have envisaged 10 months after they brought this guy in on a long-term deal that he would resign after bowing out of the World Cup pool stage for the first time in their history.

"This stinks and this is not cool.

"I interviewed loads of Aussie rugby fans in France and they said they were behind the players but not Eddie.

"In the last year, Eddie has lost the English rugby public and then the Australian rugby public in eight games. That's a remarkable skill."

Poor form, and his last months with England were grim for sure....but conned??

Let's have a quick quiz
Which England coach has the highest win percentage?
What coach lead England to a grand slam within 4 months of taking over a side who didn't make it out of their pool in a world cup? (his sidekick...SB! had 3 months in fairness)
What coach's England team was unbeaten for his first 18 games in charge, including beating Australia away 3-0 and an unbeaten AI series?
Which coach's team became just the second team after New Zealand to win every one of their games in a calendar year?
Which coach won the 6N championship in his second year?
Which coach lead an England young 2nd team to an unbeaten tour in Argentina? (Lions clash) Followed by winning all three AI's again?
Which coach will I gloss over 18/19 for ?
Which coach lead England to their first world cup final since 2007, including beating NZ for the first time at a World Cup?
Even you would have to concede,surely, that his 1st 4 years were hardly the result of a con 8 years ago? I'd agree they should likely have cut him loose 3 years ago, to be fair.

[Oakboy]

SB may not be the perfect guy to take us forward but he's one hell of a step up from his predecessor. How did the RFU ever get conned by the bloke 8 years ago? From the BBC website:

Monye says Jones' resignation is "not cool".

"I'm just really disappointed for so many different reasons," he added. "The reason he went into Australia was because Dave Rennie lost his job nine months ago.

"I remember watching one of his first interviews as a guy who was passionate and emotional and was crying on camera, saying what it means to come back and coach Australia as an Australian.

"Then you started hearing more than whispers that he was having conversations with Japan.

"He said he was definitely staying, so where has all the integrity gone?

"Rugby Australia took a gamble but they weren't at ground zero [under Dave Rennie]. There is no way they could have envisaged 10 months after they brought this guy in on a long-term deal that he would resign after bowing out of the World Cup pool stage for the first time in their history.

"This stinks and this is not cool.

"I interviewed loads of Aussie rugby fans in France and they said they were behind the players but not Eddie.

"In the last year, Eddie has lost the English rugby public and then the Australian rugby public in eight games. That's a remarkable skill."

Poor form, and his last months with England were grim for sure....but conned??

Let's have a quick quiz
Which England coach has the highest win percentage?
What coach lead England to a grand slam within 4 months of taking over a side who didn't make it out of their pool in a world cup? (his sidekick...SB! had 3 months in fairness)
What coach's England team was unbeaten for his first 18 games in charge, including beating Australia away 3-0 and an unbeaten AI series?
Which coach's team became just the second team after New Zealand to win every one of their games in a calendar year?
Which coach won the 6N championship in his second year?
Which coach lead an England young 2nd team to an unbeaten tour in Argentina? (Lions clash) Followed by winning all three AI's again?
Which coach will I gloss over 18/19 for ?
Which coach lead England to their first world cup final since 2007, including beating NZ for the first time at a World Cup?
Even you would have to concede,surely, that his 1st 4 years were hardly the result of a con 8 years ago? I'd agree they should likely have cut him loose 3 years ago, to be fair.

Ah well, dream on, I suppose? Only one GS with that initial superiority always seemed sub-par on the one hand. Conversely, if one GS was par, maybe the initial run was not what it appeared to be.

I will never believe that Jones was good for English rugby. Worse, I will never believe that it was not clear from the outset that he would be bad for English rugby. The more I think about it, the more I am amazed that SB should come out and say that the team he inherited was not good at anything. To think it was one thing, but for him to make such a categorical announcement?

No, you quote what stats you like. I'll stick with the man having conned the RFU. He should never have been appointed in the first place. I accept that we won't agree.

[Banquo]

SB may not be the perfect guy to take us forward but he's one hell of a step up from his predecessor. How did the RFU ever get conned by the bloke 8 years ago? From the BBC website:

Monye says Jones' resignation is "not cool".

"I'm just really disappointed for so many different reasons," he added. "The reason he went into Australia was because Dave Rennie lost his job nine months ago.

"I remember watching one of his first interviews as a guy who was passionate and emotional and was crying on camera, saying what it means to come back and coach Australia as an Australian.

"Then you started hearing more than whispers that he was having conversations with Japan.

"He said he was definitely staying, so where has all the integrity gone?

"Rugby Australia took a gamble but they weren't at ground zero [under Dave Rennie]. There is no way they could have envisaged 10 months after they brought this guy in on a long-term deal that he would resign after bowing out of the World Cup pool stage for the first time in their history.

"This stinks and this is not cool.

"I interviewed loads of Aussie rugby fans in France and they said they were behind the players but not Eddie.

"In the last year, Eddie has lost the English rugby public and then the Australian rugby public in eight games. That's a remarkable skill."

Poor form, and his last months with England were grim for sure....but conned??

Let's have a quick quiz
Which England coach has the highest win percentage?
What coach lead England to a grand slam within 4 months of taking over a side who didn't make it out of their pool in a world cup? (his sidekick...SB! had 3 months in fairness)
What coach's England team was unbeaten for his first 18 games in charge, including beating Australia away 3-0 and an unbeaten AI series?
Which coach's team became just the second team after New Zealand to win every one of their games in a calendar year?
Which coach won the 6N championship in his second year?
Which coach lead an England young 2nd team to an unbeaten tour in Argentina? (Lions clash) Followed by winning all three AI's again?
Which coach will I gloss over 18/19 for ?
Which coach lead England to their first world cup final since 2007, including beating NZ for the first time at a World Cup?
Even you would have to concede,surely, that his 1st 4 years were hardly the result of a con 8 years ago? I'd agree they should likely have cut him loose 3 years ago, to be fair.

I'll stick with the man having conned the RFU..

It just doesn't make any sense, given the absolute lack of achievement for the 12 years preceding him. What he was unable to do was build on 2019's relative success, and he is a bit of a nob.

[Mikey Brown]

Only one GS with that initial superiority always seemed sub-par on the one hand. Conversely, if one GS was par, maybe the initial run was not what it appeared to be

This really isn’t meant to be a dig but I’ve been posting here for so long and this is probably the most incredible feat of logic I’ve ever encountered.

I think Jones is an absolute prick, and I think long-term he’s had a negative affect on a number of players, but you really can’t argue with his first couple of years being a huge step up from where we were.

Should we have looked more closely at his previous patterns of success and failure in long-term positions? Absolutely, but after a pretty dire (iirc) 2018 the RWC was quite an impressive showing.

I liked the original plan of phasing him out gradually with another coach coming in after 2019 though. It’s a shame it didn’t play out that way. I guess with Covid disruption and Baxter/McCall etc not being interested it just wasn’t meant to be.

[fivepointer]

Jones was excellent up to the 2019 WC. He was just what we needed and delivered a successful side. Unfortunately he hung around after his sell by date and frankly we should have been looking to move him on in 2021.
Cant deny the first 4 years were very good, though.

[p/d]

He is/was a short term fix for a long term problem.

For me an unlikeable character who spat the dummy at the hint of any criticism.

I’m sure there will be a story to be told of how his position became untenable as Aus head coach, leaving him no option but to resign.

[Oakboy]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

[Puja]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

That's a hell of an interpretation. Burt's England were wildly inconsistent and could easily go from surrendering to Aus and South Africa for two weeks and then trouncing the All Blacks from nowhere. Most notably, their improvement had plateaued by 2014-2015 and it appeared as if they were never going to get it together. They weren't as bad as the RWC collapse suggested, but they lacked steel and lacked the quality that would take them to a higher level. To wit, once we'd lost to Wales, there wasn't a realistic thought that we could make it up by beating Australia - they were just in a different echelon to us and we stood more hope from Fiji beating Wales.

Eddie wasn't starting from absolutely nothing (the way Burt did), but to say their foundations gave Jones his early run of success is to massively overestimate what Burt and Farrell had, and massively underestimate what Eddie brought.

I'd have 2023!Farrell and 2023!Lancaster back tomorrow, yes. But would I have 2016!Farrell and 2016!Lancaster? Hell no.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Literally nobody on here from any country wants Jones as their coach, unless there are some very quiet Japanese fans. What point are you even trying to make?

Most would be (at least a bit) interested in Farrell but he isn't available. Most were happy enough with Borthwick coming in but wanted the right timing and coaching crew around him. What is the point of contention for you?

You say it took the RFU 7 years to come to their senses. Would firing him in 2017 in the middle of a world record equalling 18 match win streak have been them "coming to their senses" after only a year? To replace him with who?

[FKAS]

I think Lancaster failed spectacularly and was in a completely untenable position by the end of his time in charge. I don't think he was a bad coach for us but perhaps didn't have the experience to lead a team into a world cup.

Players were disenfranchised under him and his man management style. Flood left for France as he felt isolated at international level a year before the world cup (60 cap international flyhalf). Haskell has gone on record talking about how the players often switched off because there were meetings about meetings. The whole Burgess saga.

The style of rugby wasn't much to right home about either. Farrell was at 10 and we were pretty pragmatic.

The RFU had managed to identify a group of young coaches with a lot of potential but as a coaching group they were lacking some top level leadership. Lancaster has found success as a coaching consultant working alongside Cullen as director of rugby. Farrell led Munster for a while before taking the top job. Catt is still an attack coach though perhaps one that is listened to a bit more as there rumours of him storming out of the selection meeting before the world cup iirc.

Eddie provided exactly what England needed when he came in. Lancaster certainly left him more to work with than day Martin Johnson inherited but Eddie provided the team with a focus. The error was not managing his succession properly by keeping him on incrementally with new contracts. He'd be gearing up for the exit door and to handover and then the RFU would give him longer. Not a position that's good for a medium term strategy. Had we managed his succession correctly post the 2019 world cup we'd have probably (as long as we picked the right successor) been in for a better four years leading into the world cup.

[Which Tyler]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

What even is the point of this post?

I'm sure I'm wrong but it seems that it has to be one of the following:
A] Coach who was talented but inexperienced is improved by the addition of experience.
B] It's a new day, and I haven't said that I dislike Eddie Jones yet, despite telling everyone on every day for the last 8 years, and I don't care that it's approaching a whole year since he had anything to do with English rugby.
C] We should have kept a failed coaching team on, to gain that experience with England, so that England could once again rise to the heights of nearly-men at subsequent world cups, almost certainly performing less well than they actually did in 2019 and 2023, and some (but not all) of the periods inbetween.


If A] - then please consider absolutely nobody to be shocked by this news.
If B] - then please consider absolutely nobody to be shocked by the 2,900th retelling of this news.
If C] - then... that's an opinion, I guess.

[p/d]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

I would have stuck with Burt. There was enough evidence to suggest he would develop into a world class coach.

Along comes Eddie the Eagle, sprinkles some potpourri on a turd only to sit back and watch France, Ireland and Scotland (poor Wales) move clear with long term strategies.

[Puja]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

I would have stuck with Burt. There was enough evidence to suggest he would develop into a world class coach.

Really? What evidence was that?

I was one of his biggest cheerleaders and kept the faith and stayed optimistic for so long, but even I was starting to lose the faith in his last year or so.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

I would have stuck with Burt. There was enough evidence to suggest he would develop into a world class coach.

Really? What evidence was that?

I was one of his biggest cheerleaders and kept the faith and stayed optimistic for so long, but even I was starting to lose the faith in his last year or so.

Puja

He did win a test with a centre partnership of 12T and Burrell. That’s no mean feat.

[Banquo]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

I would have stuck with Burt. There was enough evidence to suggest he would develop into a world class coach.

Along comes Eddie the Eagle, sprinkles some potpourri on a turd only to sit back and watch France, Ireland and Scotland (poor Wales) move clear with long term strategies.

hmm. Recollections may vary.

[p/d]

Based on their overall careers, together with their time with England, if there was a choice tomorrow who should we appoint as head-coach: Jones, Farrell or Lancaster?

Did the last two fail totally with England or, in hindsight, did their foundation give Jones his early run of success? Either way, it proved unsustainable by him. The RFU took seven years to come to their senses, IMO, and three or four in others' eyes. At least they finally did and his subsequent efforts with Australia proved what his status as a head-coach really is.

I would have stuck with Burt. There was enough evidence to suggest he would develop into a world class coach.

Along comes Eddie the Eagle, sprinkles some potpourri on a turd only to sit back and watch France, Ireland and Scotland (poor Wales) move clear with long term strategies.

hmm. Recollections may vary.

Not holding that against you & Puja.

[Banquo]

I would have stuck with Burt. There was enough evidence to suggest he would develop into a world class coach.

Along comes Eddie the Eagle, sprinkles some potpourri on a turd only to sit back and watch France, Ireland and Scotland (poor Wales) move clear with long term strategies.

hmm. Recollections may vary.

Not holding that against you & Puja.

You are a one.
With a hazy memory...snowballs.