RugbyRebels

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:14 pmThe real problem in that area is New Zealand and Australia poaching players incredibly young and nationalising them.

The vast majority of the Samoan test team were born in New Zealand. There's a reason that the Moana Pasifika Super Rugby team is based in Auckland - the economic differences between NZ and Samoa are so vast that there is a massive diaspora of people coming across looking for work that pays many times what they could earn back home. The population of Samoa: 218,764. The population of Samoans living in New Zealand: 182,721

As for the players who come over as schoolboys, it's not a case of them being dragged away - PI youngsters are actively courting scouts and trying to get offered scholarships, as are their parents. If you could get your child a first class education and an opportunity to earn money that they couldn't dream of at home, wouldn't you do that for them?

And that brings us back to your description of, "a load of players who only want to play for them after they haven’t made it for their actual country" - what even is their "actual country"? Is it New Zealand, where they've lived since the age of 12-13, where they earn a living, which they have made their home for 10+ years? If they play once for New Zealand 7s, does that mean that Samoa is no longer their "actual country" anymore? Do they lose their Samoaness upon taking an opportunity which, ironically, they may have done to earn money that they can send to support their family and home in Samoa?

I do agree with parts of what you're saying, but I think you're trying to claim a simple, blanket solution is available, to a set of very nebulous and nuanced issues.

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:26 pm Just to confirm that this is absolute madness, Scotland name their 23 and 13 of them weren’t produced by their system.

3 South Africans, 2 Australians, 1 Irishman, 6 English and 1 Australian/English. 5 of them have never even played in Scotland.

And they start as favourites versus England.

This is something I agree with, although I don't know what I'd do to fix it.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:35 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:26 pm Just to confirm that this is absolute madness, Scotland name their 23 and 13 of them weren’t produced by their system.

3 South Africans, 2 Australians, 1 Irishman, 6 English and 1 Australian/English. 5 of them have never even played in Scotland.

And they start as favourites versus England.

This is something I agree with, although I don't know what I'd do to fix it.

Puja

10 a-side?

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:44 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:35 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:26 pm Just to confirm that this is absolute madness, Scotland name their 23 and 13 of them weren’t produced by their system.

3 South Africans, 2 Australians, 1 Irishman, 6 English and 1 Australian/English. 5 of them have never even played in Scotland.

And they start as favourites versus England.

This is something I agree with, although I don't know what I'd do to fix it.

Puja

10 a-side?

I think you’ll find it’s normally 6 or 8 a-side for morris dancing. I know we don’t normally encourage doing any research before posting on here but this is just basic common knowledge.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:05 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:44 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:35 pm



This is something I agree with, although I don't know what I'd do to fix it.

Puja

10 a-side?

I think you’ll find it’s normally 6 or 8 a-side for morris dancing. I know we don’t normally encourage doing any research before posting on here but this is just basic common knowledge.

Well I never. There always seemed to be more of us at the Garston Gallopers

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:11 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:05 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:44 pm

10 a-side?

I think you’ll find it’s normally 6 or 8 a-side for morris dancing. I know we don’t normally encourage doing any research before posting on here but this is just basic common knowledge.

Well I never. There always seemed to be more of us at the Garston Gallopers

You must have a big bowl to put all the keys in.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:27 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:11 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:05 pm
I think you’ll find it’s normally 6 or 8 a-side for morris dancing. I know we don’t normally encourage doing any research before posting on here but this is just basic common knowledge.

Well I never. There always seemed to be more of us at the Garston Gallopers

You must have a big bowl to put all the keys in.

I'm starting to think we have drifted off topic.

Going back on topic, I'm hoping Manu gets drafted into the A XV. Seems the only thing of value to be got out of this game is getting match fitness into players and he may be needed later in the 6N.

Puja

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:26 pm Just to confirm that this is absolute madness, Scotland name their 23 and 13 of them weren’t produced by their system.

3 South Africans, 2 Australians, 1 Irishman, 6 English and 1 Australian/English. 5 of them have never even played in Scotland.

And they start as favourites versus England.

So your issue is really that England are bad under the current system?

If you want a long term vision of rugby where only England and France can compete for the 6N and South Africa increasingly dominate in the southern hemisphere then I can see the logic. But I personally think that international rugby league is boring when only three teams can compete.

switchskier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:48 pm If you want a long term vision of rugby where only England and France can compete for the 6N...

I mean, I did start watching rugby back in 1995, so those first 8 years or so were my rose-tinted golden age that I wish we could go back to. Make the 5/6N great again!

Puja

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:26 pm Just to confirm that this is absolute madness, Scotland name their 23 and 13 of them weren’t produced by their system.

3 South Africans, 2 Australians, 1 Irishman, 6 English and 1 Australian/English. 5 of them have never even played in Scotland.

And they start as favourites versus England.

Yeah?
And?
So?
What?

Honestly. So what. Why not maximise national potential? It’s their problem! If it hampers their pathway but is their method of choice then fair fucks to them. They’ve a much more limited player base so why the hell not?

I mean we can argue over eligibility and shit but it is what it is and if nations maximise that’s potential then fair play to them.

I personally want to watch international competition between countries where the countries that are most successful are the ones that invest in the sport and develop and produce players. I also think that’s good for the game long term- investment in pathways and player development.

Maybe that’s just me and if it is then so be it. I could never be a Scotland fan celebrating beating us on Saturday knowing that 6 englishmen were in the side though. Or that Jack Dempsey plays for my team just because the Aussies stopped picking him. Or that my nation doesn’t bother to produce players, doesn’t invest in the sport and instead runs an exiles program.

Again, maybe that’s just me. Each to their own.

Though you’ll never likely be in that position seeing as our player base is so much bigger!

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:12 pm Going back on topic, I'm hoping Manu gets drafted into the A XV. Seems the only thing of value to be got out of this game is getting match fitness into players and he may be needed later in the 6N.

Puja

Attempting this once again - does anyone know when the team is announced?

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:05 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:12 pm Going back on topic, I'm hoping Manu gets drafted into the A XV. Seems the only thing of value to be got out of this game is getting match fitness into players and he may be needed later in the 6N.

Puja

Attempting this once again - does anyone know when the team is announced?

Puja

I've spent an unhealthy amount of time trying to find an answer and errr. No.

England A Team v Portugal:
1. Fin Baxter (Harlequins)
2. Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons)
3. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
4. Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby - Captain)
6. Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints)
7. Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)
8. Alfie Barbeary (Bath Rugby)

9. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
10. Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)
11. Will Muir (Bath Rugby)
12. Max Ojomoh (Bath Rugby)
13. Oscar Beard (Harlequins)
14. Cadan Murley (Harlequins)
15. Josh Hodge (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements: 16. Sam Riley (Harlequins) 17. Tarek Haffar (Northampton Saints) 18. Josh Iosefa-Scott (Exeter Chiefs) 19. Ben Bamber (Sale Sharks) 20. Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs) 21. Caolan Englefield (Gloucester Rugby) 22. Jamie Shillcock (Leicester Tigers) 23. Oliver Hartley (Saracens)

Fun looking team.

A lot to like about the selection. Ewels sticks out a bit amongst the potential but sort of makes sense as he'll be captain and running the lineout. Given that backline we should be looking to play a lot ball in hand.

Despite this probably being a training run I think I'll retract what I said about Ewels. It'll be good for guys like Baxter, Tuima, Pepper to have experience around them in the pack. Great to see all three of those get a run. Barbeary has a big point to prove. I just hope Ewels takes his share of carrying duties to Alfie can focus on kick chase.

The backs look ridiculous. Most of them do that fast running thing.

From what I can tell Shillcock would be the form call, but Atkinson perhaps considered the longer term prospect and more 'true' 10? Interested to see how Riley, Fisilau and Hartley do off the bench. Don't know anything about 17, 18, 19 or 20 though. Thoughts?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:23 am Fun looking team.

Yeah, you pretty much can't argue with that, given the squad, and it's certainly got a few interesting combos in there. Just a shame they're not going to receive any kind of a real challenge, as I'd be interested to see that XXIII go in a real match.

I wouldn't've minded seeing some more players step down from the full squad to get match practice though - Tuilagi, Obano, BCurry, etc.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:44 am Despite this probably being a training run I think I'll retract what I said about Ewels. It'll be good for guys like Baxter, Tuima, Pepper to have experience around them in the pack. Great to see all three of those get a run. Barbeary has a big point to prove. I just hope Ewels takes his share of carrying duties to Alfie can focus on kick chase.

The backs look ridiculous. Most of them do that fast running thing.

From what I can tell Shillcock would be the form call, but Atkinson perhaps considered the longer term prospect and more 'true' 10? Interested to see how Riley, Fisilau and Hartley do off the bench. Don't know anything about 17, 18, 19 or 20 though. Thoughts?

17. Haffar is a young player from LIrish - very fast in the loose and noted for some highlight reel breaks at the end of last season. Now with Saints and getting decent game-time off the bench - very good body position in the scrum, but still learning some dark arts.
18. Iosefa-Scott is a Kiwi poach - he's fine and solid, but nothing spectacular. Says more about our lack of tighthead quality currently than anything else - good to have to improve our depth and I wouldn't be panicking if he had to start a full international because of injuries, but that's about it.
19. Bamber is a big lad who jngf would approve of at lock. Had a bit of a rocky start to his rugby career and was released by Bristol and went back to stacking shelves in a shop, but then fought back and got picked up by Sale, so good story for the newspapers. Rough talent, but highly rated.
20 is Fisilau, who you namechecked - did you mean someone else?

Puja

Whoops. I meant 21.

Thanks.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am Whoops. I meant 21.

Thanks.

21. Englefield is another ex-LI player and has played for Ireland age-groups consistently when younger, although he's born and raised in England. Tidy service and a decent pass, but the USP that I've seen is that he's got a ridiculous boot on him - kicks for great distance and accuracy. Unsure how good he is at posing a running threat though.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:18 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am Whoops. I meant 21.

Thanks.

21. Englefield is another ex-LI player and has played for Ireland age-groups consistently when younger, although he's born and raised in England. Tidy service and a decent pass, but the USP that I've seen is that he's got a ridiculous boot on him - kicks for great distance and accuracy. Unsure how good he is at posing a running threat though.

Puja

Very little running threat. He's very much from the Peter Stringer scrum half school.

Party piece is that he's a decent goal kicker as well, although rarely gets a chance.

Interesting to see Pepper and Pearson in combo....I think Pearson has a lot to offer if he stops dropping the ball

Yeah. The Pea-Per 6-7 combo could be good.

Shame the opposition aren’t likely to provide much of a test.