RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote:Times reporting a cabinet revolt with the aim of installing Lydington as temporary PM for the Brexit transition.

May is almost certainly a busted flush now.

Different sources disagree. Lidington or Gove.

I also don't know how they can force a coup, she's failed a personal vote of no confidence, but survived a governmental one, and more importantly, she's survived a leadership challenge that makes her untouchable until December.
As far as I can tell, all they can do is resign en masses (and neither block would risk doing that and leaving "the enemy" in charge - just like a no confidence vote) or to side-step her and bring their own motions giving days to parliament itself - which would surely require Theresa's consent

Sandydragon wrote:Times reporting a cabinet revolt with the aim of installing Lydington as temporary PM for the Brexit transition.

May is almost certainly a busted flush now.

She's been a busted flush since the 2017 GE.

Sandydragon wrote:Times reporting a cabinet revolt with the aim of installing Lydington as temporary PM for the Brexit transition.

May is almost certainly a busted flush now.

Who's Lydington? I don't recognise the name and I'm wary of saying "Anyone but Gove" on the basis that the Tory party always has deeper depths to plumb.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Times reporting a cabinet revolt with the aim of installing Lydington as temporary PM for the Brexit transition.

May is almost certainly a busted flush now.

Who's Lydington? I don't recognise the name and I'm wary of saying "Anyone but Gove" on the basis that the Tory party always has deeper depths to plumb.

Puja

Sorry Lidington. He’s deputy leader, I think he used to be minister for Europe. Seems to favour a softer Brexit.

Sandydragon wrote:

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Times reporting a cabinet revolt with the aim of installing Lydington as temporary PM for the Brexit transition.

May is almost certainly a busted flush now.

Who's Lydington? I don't recognise the name and I'm wary of saying "Anyone but Gove" on the basis that the Tory party always has deeper depths to plumb.

Puja

Sorry Lidington. He’s deputy leader, I think he used to be minister for Europe. Seems to favour a softer Brexit.

He has the semblance of sanity compared to some around him.

Papers are full of May being/going bonkers. Hardly surprising give her apparent personality.

May resigning to secure votes for her deal would be the Tories working even harder to make brexit about the Tory party than any notion of the public interest

So Labour set to propose Common Market 2.0 which is in fact what we have today, less any influence (and free trade deals as it reads), Why can't they just be honest, and say.....er actually, staying in is better. Ditto all those promoting the similar Norway plus deal.

There's even the slightly deranged proposals of the Current WA plus (one of) the above deals-- so we leave, and then transition to something that's like what we have now, but not as good. Did I eat the wrong pill?

Banquo wrote:So Labour set to propose Common Market 2.0 which is in fact what we have today, less any influence (and free trade deals as it reads), Why can't they just be honest, and say.....er actually, staying in is better. Ditto all those promoting the similar Norway plus deal.

There's even the slightly deranged proposals of the Current WA plus (one of) the above deals-- so we leave, and then transition to something that's like what we have now, but not as good. Did I eat the wrong pill?

I'd choose to remain, but if I had to leave I'd choose everything we had now less our influence/vote

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:So Labour set to propose Common Market 2.0 which is in fact what we have today, less any influence (and free trade deals as it reads), Why can't they just be honest, and say.....er actually, staying in is better. Ditto all those promoting the similar Norway plus deal.

There's even the slightly deranged proposals of the Current WA plus (one of) the above deals-- so we leave, and then transition to something that's like what we have now, but not as good. Did I eat the wrong pill?

I'd choose to remain, but if I had to leave I'd choose everything we had now less our influence/vote

so pointless even leaving, which is kind of my point. Emperor's new clothes. If you are going to leave, there has to be some point to it, even if its only the potential of better trade deals (which you don't mention). That's where the honesty needs to be.

I was thinking I may have missed something, but obviously not.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:So Labour set to propose Common Market 2.0 which is in fact what we have today, less any influence (and free trade deals as it reads), Why can't they just be honest, and say.....er actually, staying in is better. Ditto all those promoting the similar Norway plus deal.

There's even the slightly deranged proposals of the Current WA plus (one of) the above deals-- so we leave, and then transition to something that's like what we have now, but not as good. Did I eat the wrong pill?

I'd choose to remain, but if I had to leave I'd choose everything we had now less our influence/vote

so pointless even leaving, which is kind of my point. Emperor's new clothes. If you are going to leave, there has to be some point to it, even if its only the potential of better trade deals (which you don't mention). That's where the honesty needs to be.

I was thinking I may have missed something, but obviously not.

If we must leave I'd rather minimise the damage and retain access to the EU and their trade deals than anything else, we'd still have left the EU. I would agree the supposed positives are on balance pointless

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
I'd choose to remain, but if I had to leave I'd choose everything we had now less our influence/vote

so pointless even leaving, which is kind of my point. Emperor's new clothes. If you are going to leave, there has to be some point to it, even if its only the potential of better trade deals (which you don't mention). That's where the honesty needs to be.

I was thinking I may have missed something, but obviously not.

If we must leave I'd rather minimise the damage and retain access to the EU and their trade deals than anything else, we'd still have left the EU. I would agree the supposed positives are on balance pointless

well of course. The WA gives all that through transition and backstop, but obviously no guarantees on outcomes.

https://17millionsignatures.uk/

Given the petition has now risen to 5.5 million signatures and is currently rising at over 1m per day, this doesn't feel like an outlandish target. The larger it gets, the more likely that the politicians will stop citing "The Will Of The People" and maybe try and find what the will of the people currently is, based on the choices that are actively in front of us.

Puja

Puja wrote:https://17millionsignatures.uk/

Given the petition has now risen to 5.5 million signatures and is currently rising at over 1m per day, this doesn't feel like an outlandish target. The larger it gets, the more likely that the politicians will stop citing "The Will Of The People" and maybe try and find what the will of the people currently is, based on the choices that are actively in front of us.

Puja

It's not rising at 1m a day. It's not been close to that since Friday. It was going up by 1.5m+ until then but today its "only" a couple hundred thousand.

February 20th: 1 vote
6pm Wed: 54,196
6pm Thu: 1,173,511
6pm Fri: 3,504,095
6pm Sat: 4,509,282
6pm Sun: 5,138,755
6pm Mon: 5,555,000 predicted

I would have thought it'll top out somewhere around 7million so around 15% of the electorate

Which Tyler wrote:February 20th: 1 vote
6pm Wed: 54,196
6pm Thu: 1,173,511
6pm Fri: 3,504,095
6pm Sat: 4,509,282
6pm Sun: 5,138,755
6pm Mon: 5,555,000 predicted

I would have thought it'll top out somewhere around 7million so around 15% of the electorate

Damn, the UK is ageing like fuck.

But on the petition: I said that it won't make any difference unless it gets to 8 figures this week. That's no longer looking likely. People need to push it on everyone they know, otherwise it will come to nothing.

Especially as Liam Fox (one of the most odious men I've shared a room with) said that the government would likely ignore any indicative votes parliament voted on...

Stom wrote:Especially as Liam Fox (one of the most odious men I've shared a room with) said that the government would likely ignore any indicative votes parliament voted on...

That's okay, Theresa has said the same thing, repeatedly, in parliament this afternoon.
She's also said that IF a second referendum happens, she'll only honour the result if it's a majority for her WA.

This taking back control for parliament is working a treat if by that they meant a dictatorial executive. Luckily Labour's very own Dear Leader wouldn’t abuse dictatorial powers if such precedent is now set, so the Tories can be comforted they'll have no cause for complaint in the future

Which Tyler wrote:

Stom wrote:Especially as Liam Fox (one of the most odious men I've shared a room with) said that the government would likely ignore any indicative votes parliament voted on...

That's okay, Theresa has said the same thing, repeatedly, in parliament this afternoon.
She's also said that IF a second referendum happens, she'll only honour the result if it's a majority for her WA.

Fuck my old boots she has no shame.

Does anyone actually think there is a compromise, middle ground deal that is worth anything. It seems to me that any deal that has us leave, but not achieve the sunny uplands of a hard brexit is basically a bit worse than staying in. The government’s position seems to be to minimise the damage of leaving with the threat of properly leaving as her alternative.

Stom wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:February 20th: 1 vote
6pm Wed: 54,196
6pm Thu: 1,173,511
6pm Fri: 3,504,095
6pm Sat: 4,509,282
6pm Sun: 5,138,755
6pm Mon: 5,555,000 predicted

I would have thought it'll top out somewhere around 7million so around 15% of the electorate

Damn, the UK is ageing like fuck.

But on the petition: I said that it won't make any difference unless it gets to 8 figures this week. That's no longer looking likely. People need to push it on everyone they know, otherwise it will come to nothing.

Especially as Liam Fox (one of the most odious men I've shared a room with) said that the government would likely ignore any indicative votes parliament voted on...

Electorate is about 47m.

canta_brian wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Stom wrote:Especially as Liam Fox (one of the most odious men I've shared a room with) said that the government would likely ignore any indicative votes parliament voted on...

That's okay, Theresa has said the same thing, repeatedly, in parliament this afternoon.
She's also said that IF a second referendum happens, she'll only honour the result if it's a majority for her WA.

Fuck my old boots she has no shame.

Does anyone actually think there is a compromise, middle ground deal that is worth anything. It seems to me that any deal that has us leave, but not achieve the sunny uplands of a hard brexit is basically a bit worse than staying in. The government’s position seems to be to minimise the damage of leaving with the threat of properly leaving as her alternative.

No. Norway plus and EU 2.0 are worse than staying and their proponents need to say so. The WA in theory offers the opportunity to negotiate something different than BRINO minus, in practice no-one believes it likely that it will be a good outcome. Their strategy is exactly what you say.

She also seems a little confused that anyone would want a second referendum for purposes other than rubber stamping her WA.
Just doesn't understand why anyone would want any other options on the ballot.

Banquo wrote: No. Norway plus and EU 2.0 are worse than staying and their proponents need to say so. The WA in theory offers the opportunity to negotiate something different than BRINO minus, in practice no-one believes it likely that it will be a good outcome. Their strategy is exactly what you say.

Personally I'm hugely in favour of Germany+; though granted, it's not really a compromise position.

Which Tyler wrote: 6pm Mon: 5,555,000 predicted

5,555,183
Not bad

On a sunny note, was planning a holiday to the UK...rather complicated...

Will we be able to use ID cards? Will I be stopped on the way back and get my passport stamped? What about the kids? They don't have UK passports, as I never saw the need - we've not been outside Europe with them yet, so ID cards are just easier.

UK government website says: "Nah, you'll be right. Nothing'll change". EU says: border checks, stamps in passports, visas, restrictions on goods, checking of luggage...and more"

Basically, fuck you, UK government.