England pack for AIs?

[Banquo]

I just yearn to see Wade in an England shirt at Twickenham, doing a pretty good impression of Jason Robinson. He's vulnerable to the high ball but other than that, I think he's pretty solid. He's not a massive defender but his pace and footwork mean he's pretty hard to get away from, nobody is going to step and accelerate away from him.

Re Ford and Farrell. Saw the highlights of the Argie games. I love Ford as an attacking fly half and want him in my matchday squad. Thing is, I also want Teo for go forward, defence and offloads; he deserves to be starting at 12 in my view. Farrell is a proper test match player; he's a leader, he's brave and aggressive, he's capable of lovely passing and kicking, he can control a game and he's a fine goal-kicker. I don't think we'll lose many games because of him, he's a pretty strong all rounder at ten. I think Ford can have worse games, is a target for ball carriers, isn't as good a goal kicker. I just feel if we were playing NZ tomorrow, they'd rather Ford was playing.

Ford and Teo (and JJ) imo would be a fantastic combo. I agree that Faz should be at 10 or nowhere, but fear that you have indulged in hyperbole over his skills- I will agree that he has improved from having ropy all round skills to being mainly competent.

I don't think NZ would give a crap either way though; they'd be quite happy with Faz's mad flying up from defence- their wingers coming off the blindside would cause havoc, and seek to wind him up, and relish the occasionally clunky hands he still shows, and happily ignore him as a running threat. On Ford, as you say, they'd try and run over him, but would be more leery about him ball in hand- he'd give their defence more pause for thought. They are just different players, so that's good- I'd have Ford to start, and Faz would be a decent option to close out a close game.

Unfortunately, its wade's decision making that lets him down in defence- I'd love to see him start but for that.

I agree with most of your other selections, but hate that we still are trying to shoehorn players into positions that don't maximise their strengths...this is Itoje I refer to, a world class lock, but barely a decent 6. IMO we need to accept that one of our 4 quality locks will miss out on the 23, and one will be on the bench. Robshaw at 6 and Hughes at 8 looks a good, and complementary start, so finding a 7 who is all that means to most folks is the imperative for me, rather than cludging something together.

welcome back

Thanks, good to be back.

Re Ford and Farrell - I think whilst this board has always been more Ford than Farrell, but most outside of it agree with me. I suspect that Mark Mcall feels Farrell is imperative to Saracens and their success and wouldn't swap. Farrell has been pushed to 12 because international coaches want him in the side, both Gatland for the Lions and Jones for England. I think his aggressive, winning mentality, his presence and his all round ability are key to the side at 10, where he's obviously a main man. When defences tire, I'd bring Ford on. And I disagree, I think in the rain at Twickenham, I suspect the ABs would be shocked if Farrell wasn't in the team, he's what Eddie wants England to be, tough, talented, arrogant and hellbent on winning. Plus he has the skills which I know are even more important.

I don't feel like I'm shoehorning players. I'm trying to pick the most effective pack. Itoje started slowly at 6 for England and then improved, I think he's capable of being an awesome 6 personally and regardless, I don't always feel people have to fit the old-school definition/description for their position. I think he can be a world class 6 and a world class lock.

Itoje and Haskell/Wray with Hughes at 8 is formidable in my view. Mobility, power and work-rate.

Re Wade. it's taking rough with the smooth. Decision making related mistake every few games, tries out of nothing every few games. He is the most effective try scorer in the premiership stats wise by a long way I believe, of those currently playing, for a reason, he's lethal.

Bizarre you feel that way with Wade- and its more than one defensive error every so often, plus he won't be scoring for fun as much internationally, as every other selection point has been about attitude, power, work rate etc......with no mention of skill, or technical ability at the breakdown (say), or decision making. So we aren't ever going to agree tbh; still picking Haskell says a bit to me, especially as I think his physical attributes have dropped away. The Itoje argument has been well rehearsed- IF he is to become even intl standard at 6, he will need to play there all the time for Sarries and make big changes to physique and technique....do we want to wait for a year to see IF that happens?

[Dasheragain]

The Ford/Farrell argument is boring.

How about full-back, what's the RR trend with that one?

I wasn't trying to harass you about it. But I was genuinely curious what I was missing, which nobody seems to actually have an answer for.

Fullback is a weird one. I can't remember the last time anyone else got any serious time there. I can only remember Slade there weirdly enough.

Sorry I know you weren't, didn't mean it like that. Just feel we're not going to agree and could go on forever

[Digby]

What's the in joke with him lads? Not rated?

I'm sure Convex will back me up, wherever he is.

Just that he's a very good club player, a bit akin to Alex Goode maybe. Which is still very impressive, just not of much interest to England. And would Convex backing up an argument make it stronger do you feel?

I wouldn't say Robshaw is a better player than him right now.

Re Convex. No, I regretted it as soon as I typed it.

I'd be content to see a back row that didn't feature Robshaw or Wray, and unless he steps back up (and he might still be getting over his foot injury) I don't really see the sense in having Haskell either. Wanting any of them seems akin to being excited about Lydiate, they've all got qualities, but it's just a bit lacking

[Dasheragain]

Ford and Teo (and JJ) imo would be a fantastic combo. I agree that Faz should be at 10 or nowhere, but fear that you have indulged in hyperbole over his skills- I will agree that he has improved from having ropy all round skills to being mainly competent.

I don't think NZ would give a crap either way though; they'd be quite happy with Faz's mad flying up from defence- their wingers coming off the blindside would cause havoc, and seek to wind him up, and relish the occasionally clunky hands he still shows, and happily ignore him as a running threat. On Ford, as you say, they'd try and run over him, but would be more leery about him ball in hand- he'd give their defence more pause for thought. They are just different players, so that's good- I'd have Ford to start, and Faz would be a decent option to close out a close game.

Unfortunately, its wade's decision making that lets him down in defence- I'd love to see him start but for that.

I agree with most of your other selections, but hate that we still are trying to shoehorn players into positions that don't maximise their strengths...this is Itoje I refer to, a world class lock, but barely a decent 6. IMO we need to accept that one of our 4 quality locks will miss out on the 23, and one will be on the bench. Robshaw at 6 and Hughes at 8 looks a good, and complementary start, so finding a 7 who is all that means to most folks is the imperative for me, rather than cludging something together.

welcome back

Thanks, good to be back.

Re Ford and Farrell - I think whilst this board has always been more Ford than Farrell, but most outside of it agree with me. I suspect that Mark Mcall feels Farrell is imperative to Saracens and their success and wouldn't swap. Farrell has been pushed to 12 because international coaches want him in the side, both Gatland for the Lions and Jones for England. I think his aggressive, winning mentality, his presence and his all round ability are key to the side at 10, where he's obviously a main man. When defences tire, I'd bring Ford on. And I disagree, I think in the rain at Twickenham, I suspect the ABs would be shocked if Farrell wasn't in the team, he's what Eddie wants England to be, tough, talented, arrogant and hellbent on winning. Plus he has the skills which I know are even more important.

I don't feel like I'm shoehorning players. I'm trying to pick the most effective pack. Itoje started slowly at 6 for England and then improved, I think he's capable of being an awesome 6 personally and regardless, I don't always feel people have to fit the old-school definition/description for their position. I think he can be a world class 6 and a world class lock.

Itoje and Haskell/Wray with Hughes at 8 is formidable in my view. Mobility, power and work-rate.

Re Wade. it's taking rough with the smooth. Decision making related mistake every few games, tries out of nothing every few games. He is the most effective try scorer in the premiership stats wise by a long way I believe, of those currently playing, for a reason, he's lethal.

Bizarre you feel that way with Wade- and its more than one defensive error every so often, plus he won't be scoring for fun as much internationally, as every other selection point has been about attitude, power, work rate etc......with no mention of skill, or technical ability at the breakdown (say), or decision making. So we aren't ever going to agree tbh; still picking Haskell says a bit to me, especially as I think his physical attributes have dropped away. The Itoje argument has been well rehearsed- IF he is to become even intl standard at 6, he will need to play there all the time for Sarries and make big changes to physique and technique....do we want to wait for a year to see IF that happens?

Remember I'm not picking Wade as a first choice winger. I'm saying I'd love to see him play for England and I think he'd be successful and score a lot of tries. He's got faults with his game, as he does for Wasps, but he's our most dangerous player and could be exciting for England.

Re other selection points - I'm not a computer, I'm allowed to vary my selection criteria... I can pick a flare winger using different selection criteria to those I use for picking flankers or even the fly half - each individual has their own merits and has a different competitor(s) for their shirt to judge against. Personally I'd go Roko and Daly to start I think.

When did Haskell's physical attributes fall away? They hadn't in the six nations when he was hugely powerful off the bench and they hadn't last year. He didn't look poor for the lions either. I'd wager physically he's comparable with Robshaw no?

[Puja]

Remember I'm not picking Wade as a first choice winger. I'm saying I'd love to see him play for England and I think he'd be successful and score a lot of tries. He's got faults with his game, as he does for Wasps, but he's our most dangerous player and could be exciting for England.

Re other selection points - I'm not a computer, I'm allowed to vary my selection criteria... I can pick a flare winger using different selection criteria to those I use for picking flankers or even the fly half - each individual has their own merits and has a different competitor(s) for their shirt to judge against. Personally I'd go Roko and Daly to start I think.

When did Haskell's physical attributes fall away? They hadn't in the six nations when he was hugely powerful off the bench and they hadn't last year. He didn't look poor for the lions either. I'd wager physically he's comparable with Robshaw no?

Yeah, but you don't pick Robshaw (just) for his physicality. It's the brain and nous where he leaves Haskell in the dust.

On Wade, I'm sad to say that I've lost the faith with him. He can do some magic things and, when the game is loose and space is ample, he's a weapon. If there's a tight, pressured game and no-one's giving him an inch, he's a passenger far too often for my liking.

If you want a Robinson-a-like (who could create space even when none was given), have you had much of a look at Tom Collins for Saints this year?

Puja

[Raggs]

I'd bet on Collins looking less effective as the season goes on. Though if Saints continue with their successful power game, he may stretch that a bit.

[Digby]

I'd bet on Collins looking less effective as the season goes on. Though if Saints continue with their successful power game, he may stretch that a bit.

I'm a little bemused if people would rather defend against Wade than Collins

[Banquo]

Thanks, good to be back.

Re Ford and Farrell - I think whilst this board has always been more Ford than Farrell, but most outside of it agree with me. I suspect that Mark Mcall feels Farrell is imperative to Saracens and their success and wouldn't swap. Farrell has been pushed to 12 because international coaches want him in the side, both Gatland for the Lions and Jones for England. I think his aggressive, winning mentality, his presence and his all round ability are key to the side at 10, where he's obviously a main man. When defences tire, I'd bring Ford on. And I disagree, I think in the rain at Twickenham, I suspect the ABs would be shocked if Farrell wasn't in the team, he's what Eddie wants England to be, tough, talented, arrogant and hellbent on winning. Plus he has the skills which I know are even more important.

I don't feel like I'm shoehorning players. I'm trying to pick the most effective pack. Itoje started slowly at 6 for England and then improved, I think he's capable of being an awesome 6 personally and regardless, I don't always feel people have to fit the old-school definition/description for their position. I think he can be a world class 6 and a world class lock.

Itoje and Haskell/Wray with Hughes at 8 is formidable in my view. Mobility, power and work-rate.

Re Wade. it's taking rough with the smooth. Decision making related mistake every few games, tries out of nothing every few games. He is the most effective try scorer in the premiership stats wise by a long way I believe, of those currently playing, for a reason, he's lethal.

Bizarre you feel that way with Wade- and its more than one defensive error every so often, plus he won't be scoring for fun as much internationally, as every other selection point has been about attitude, power, work rate etc......with no mention of skill, or technical ability at the breakdown (say), or decision making. So we aren't ever going to agree tbh; still picking Haskell says a bit to me, especially as I think his physical attributes have dropped away. The Itoje argument has been well rehearsed- IF he is to become even intl standard at 6, he will need to play there all the time for Sarries and make big changes to physique and technique....do we want to wait for a year to see IF that happens?

Remember I'm not picking Wade as a first choice winger. I'm saying I'd love to see him play for England and I think he'd be successful and score a lot of tries. He's got faults with his game, as he does for Wasps, but he's our most dangerous player and could be exciting for England.

Re other selection points - I'm not a computer, I'm allowed to vary my selection criteria... I can pick a flare winger using different selection criteria to those I use for picking flankers or even the fly half - each individual has their own merits and has a different competitor(s) for their shirt to judge against. Personally I'd go Roko and Daly to start I think.

When did Haskell's physical attributes fall away? They hadn't in the six nations when he was hugely powerful off the bench and they hadn't last year. He didn't look poor for the lions either. I'd wager physically he's comparable with Robshaw no?

Flair
So wingers need to be skilful, but forwards don't, then?

I think Haskell has fallen off physically, yes, including the lions (incredibly lucky to be on that tour). Given he is a bit of a tube, if he's not at the races physically; your comparison falls over v Robshaw, as Robshaws physicality is not his USP. He's a much better rugby player than Haskell.
For too long we've settled for physical specimens at flanker, ignoring skill and technique.

[Banquo]

The Ford/Farrell argument is boring.

How about full-back, what's the RR trend with that one?

I wasn't trying to harass you about it. But I was genuinely curious what I was missing, which nobody seems to actually have an answer for.

Fullback is a weird one. I can't remember the last time anyone else got any serious time there. I can only remember Slade there weirdly enough.

I'm as mystified as anyone who isn't in the meedja or an ex international as to why Faz is so highly rated, and uncriticised ever in public; I think its some deep desire to have Jonny back, and Faz appears to fit that bill, albeit heavily downgraded. I think he's more like a a bad tempered Rob Andrew.

[Raggs]

Haskell displayed exactly what Jones likes and wants from him in the lions tour. Supporting a 60m break, being the first man to the breakdown, and clearing out a well positioned openside flanker in a massive hit, allowing quick ball and a try to be scored.

[Oakboy]

The Ford/Farrell argument is boring.

How about full-back, what's the RR trend with that one?

I wasn't trying to harass you about it. But I was genuinely curious what I was missing, which nobody seems to actually have an answer for.

Fullback is a weird one. I can't remember the last time anyone else got any serious time there. I can only remember Slade there weirdly enough.

I'm as mystified as anyone who isn't in the meedja or an ex international as to why Faz is so highly rated, and uncriticised ever in public; I think its some deep desire to have Jonny back, and Faz appears to fit that bill, albeit heavily downgraded. I think he's more like a a bad tempered Rob Andrew.

Can you remember the last time our FH ran the ball to significant effect?

[Banquo]

Haskell displayed exactly what Jones likes and wants from him in the lions tour. Supporting a 60m break, being the first man to the breakdown, and clearing out a well positioned openside flanker in a massive hit, allowing quick ball and a try to be scored.

...so much that he didn't pick him for the training squad?

Perhaps you could use stats to prove he is at his best physically, but he has seemed to be struggling for a while- he's hardly a spring chicken and has had a foot injury. Picking an single well played passage of play is all well and good, but proves zip really.

[Banquo]

I wasn't trying to harass you about it. But I was genuinely curious what I was missing, which nobody seems to actually have an answer for.

Fullback is a weird one. I can't remember the last time anyone else got any serious time there. I can only remember Slade there weirdly enough.

I'm as mystified as anyone who isn't in the meedja or an ex international as to why Faz is so highly rated, and uncriticised ever in public; I think its some deep desire to have Jonny back, and Faz appears to fit that bill, albeit heavily downgraded. I think he's more like a a bad tempered Rob Andrew.

Can you remember the last time our FH ran the ball to significant effect?

personally, or got the backline moving?

[Timbo]

I think Haskell looked (as in played like, not in appearance obv) very physically diminished after he came back from his toe injury, both for Wasps and England. Actually thought there were good signs on the Lions tour, seemed to be getting back some form...then 2 games I've seen from him so far this season have been utter pish. He might be one of those that struggles with long periods off, needs to be playing all the time for form...maybe.

[Banquo]

I think Haskell looked (as in played like, not in appearance obv) very physically diminished after he came back from his toe injury, both for Wasps and England. Actually thought there were good signs on the Lions tour, seemed to be getting back some form...then then 2 games I've seen from his so far this season have been utter pish. He might be one of those that struggles with long periods off, needs to be playing all the time for form...maybe.

aye, maybe true.

[Raggs]

Haskell displayed exactly what Jones likes and wants from him in the lions tour. Supporting a 60m break, being the first man to the breakdown, and clearing out a well positioned openside flanker in a massive hit, allowing quick ball and a try to be scored.

...so much that he didn't pick him for the training squad?

Perhaps you could use stats to prove he is at his best physically, but he has seemed to be struggling for a while- he's hardly a spring chicken and has had a foot injury. Picking an single well played passage of play is all well and good, but proves zip really.

That single well played passage of play does show he's not lost his pace (since the foot injury). I'm not trying to argue that he should be in the side, merely that he's shown since the foot injury, exactly what Jones and other coaches like from him. It was said some had been left out due to form, others left out because they were just coming back from injury, and would be better served at their club (Kruis and Hask I believe).

[Banquo]

Haskell displayed exactly what Jones likes and wants from him in the lions tour. Supporting a 60m break, being the first man to the breakdown, and clearing out a well positioned openside flanker in a massive hit, allowing quick ball and a try to be scored.

...so much that he didn't pick him for the training squad?

Perhaps you could use stats to prove he is at his best physically, but he has seemed to be struggling for a while- he's hardly a spring chicken and has had a foot injury. Picking an single well played passage of play is all well and good, but proves zip really.

That single well played passage of play does show he's not lost his pace (since the foot injury). I'm not trying to argue that he should be in the side, merely that he's shown since the foot injury, exactly what Jones and other coaches like from him. It was said some had been left out due to form, others left out because they were just coming back from injury, and would be better served at their club (Kruis and Hask I believe).

Not sure I said lost pace, just seemed diminished physically making less impact, and labouring. Even then on pace, its all relative to those around him. I've also been underwhelmed this season, albeit it in a side with issues.

[Stom]

I have no doubt Haskell will be in the squad. But I'd rather he wasn't picked ahead of Underhill.

[Banquo]

I have no doubt Haskell will be in the squad. But I'd rather he wasn't picked ahead of Underhill.

would seem a tad retro, be amazed if he makes the next RWC

[Oakboy]

I'm as mystified as anyone who isn't in the meedja or an ex international as to why Faz is so highly rated, and uncriticised ever in public; I think its some deep desire to have Jonny back, and Faz appears to fit that bill, albeit heavily downgraded. I think he's more like a a bad tempered Rob Andrew.

Can you remember the last time our FH ran the ball to significant effect?

personally, or got the backline moving?

I'm thinking personally to the extent of, say, going past one defender minimum. It's not a major issue but I just can't remember Ford or Farrell throwing a dummy or side-stepping round someone. Ford, in particular, has the ability to do it but I can't remember one instance with Farrell at 12, for example.

[Digby]

Slade and Cips don't run much themselves either, not anymore anyway in the case of Cips. So we'd be looking at Lozowski if we wanted a 10 to run.

Not sure why Ford has stopped running, he used to overdo it for me but I'm surprised he's lurched so far t'other way

[Oakboy]

Slade and Cips don't run much themselves either, not anymore anyway in the case of Cips. So we'd be looking at Lozowski if we wanted a 10 to run.

Not sure why Ford has stopped running, he used to overdo it for me but I'm surprised he's lurched so far t'other way

I don't think Ford does anything but rigidly follow orders if Farrell is at 12. Mind you, even if he was free to apply his rugby brain fully on what is in front of him, he'd need a SH with real zippy delivery to create a default situation that he could vary.

[Banquo]

Can you remember the last time our FH ran the ball to significant effect?

personally, or got the backline moving?

I'm thinking personally to the extent of, say, going past one defender minimum. It's not a major issue but I just can't remember Ford or Farrell throwing a dummy or side-stepping round someone. Ford, in particular, has the ability to do it but I can't remember one instance with Farrell at 12, for example.

Ford did do it often; Faz isn't built that way.

[Oakboy]

personally, or got the backline moving?

I'm thinking personally to the extent of, say, going past one defender minimum. It's not a major issue but I just can't remember Ford or Farrell throwing a dummy or side-stepping round someone. Ford, in particular, has the ability to do it but I can't remember one instance with Farrell at 12, for example.

Ford did do it often; Faz isn't built that way.

Do you mean that Ford used to do it or has done recently?

[Banquo]

I'm thinking personally to the extent of, say, going past one defender minimum. It's not a major issue but I just can't remember Ford or Farrell throwing a dummy or side-stepping round someone. Ford, in particular, has the ability to do it but I can't remember one instance with Farrell at 12, for example.

Ford did do it often; Faz isn't built that way.

Do you mean that Ford used to do it or has done recently?

he's been running for Tigers. Thought he did a fair bit of running in Argentina, but only saw highlights. He ran a lot v Italy, not much v Scotland (he and faz did 7 yards between em). Its hard to judge in isolation though.

What point are you trying to get to? As you said, he isn't being set up to run; I do wonder whether he is standing a little deeper than ideal.