RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:I'd put Nowell in at 14, and Daly on the bench ahead of Atkinson, but aside from that, I'd say that's perfect.

I was pretty torn to do that, and pretty undecided on Nowell vs Daly (pace always win on the wing for me).
I came down on the side of wanting more than 1 player who can slot in at IC when playing the "what if X tears an ACL in the opening minutes" scenarios.

I'd also add that Atkinson gives us something different of the bench.
Daly on for Marchant, or Mallins gives us... essentially more of the same.

Puja wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Am I the only thinking a back line of
10. Smith
11. Mallins
12. Slade
13. Marchant
14. Daly
15. Steward

22. Ford
23. Atkinson

Looks the most balanced we've seen in forever - or at least, since Greenwood retired.

I'd put Nowell in at 14, and Daly on the bench ahead of Atkinson, but aside from that, I'd say that's perfect.

Puja

Similar for me. I’d have the same 10-15 just swap Nowell in for Atkinson at 23.

If Slade were to be injured, I’d put whoever is on the bench out of Barbeary or Simmonds at 12.

Which Tyler wrote:

Puja wrote:I'd put Nowell in at 14, and Daly on the bench ahead of Atkinson, but aside from that, I'd say that's perfect.

I was pretty torn to do that, and pretty undecided on Nowell vs Daly (pace always win on the wing for me).
I came down on the side of wanting more than 1 player who can slot in at IC when playing the "what if X tears an ACL in the opening minutes" scenarios.

Yeah, much as I complain about Farrell having been picked over Ford, I do very much understand it and, if Farrell were in any kind of form (and wasn't at risk of being crowbarred in at 12 and captain regardless of form), I'd probably endorse it. Ford's lack of versatility, combined with Smith's lack of versatility, means that there's not a great deal of value to George if he's not starting.

You would generally want your 10 to play 80 minutes if possible, especially a young 10 who's learning the international trade, so you don't want to haul Smith off which means you've only effectively got 7 tactical subs (or "finishers", if you will). And having him there means making compromises elsewhere, like either having Atkinson who's not good enough vs Daly who can't play 12.

But if you don't pick Ford and Smith breaks in the first two minutes? Everything goes to hell, very quickly.

Puja

I'd have Daly and Nowell as the wings, with Malins on the bench.

All this talk of captaincy, is Itoje not going to get the chance to put the lessons of these communication classes into action?

Peej wrote:I'd have Daly and Nowell as the wings, with Malins on the bench.

All this talk of captaincy, is Itoje not going to get the chance to put the lessons of these communication classes into action?

If it's not Lawes, you'd imagine Curry's the next cab off Eddie's rank. I'd have Itoje, myself.

Puja

I just wonder if Curry's going to be as effective as he normally is if he has to do something as unfamiliar as captaincy at the same time? Lawes is clearly the preferred alternative, but if he isn't able to play I'd look to George or Itoje.

Curry has become captain previously when Lawes has gone off, no?

I wouldn’t go for it either, but Jones seems to like him in that role.

Are we all 100% that Atkinson just isn’t up to it then? I really like what he offers, in theory, and I’d guess his lack of pace in attack may be less of an issue in a backline full of it, but I don’t know about defensively.

Mallins, Nowell & Steward. Love it!!

Marchant and Slade, 12 & 13 respectively

Randall & Smith.

Mikey Brown wrote:Are we all 100% that Atkinson just isn’t up to it then? I really like what he offers, in theory, and I’d guess his lack of pace in attack may be less of an issue in a backline full of it, but I don’t know about defensively.

I reserve the right to be proven wrong, but I think so. He just strikes me as not quite having an international top two inches. Both in his one England appearance and in top-level Euro games for Glaws, he's reacted just a touch too slowly when faced with genuine international quality. I don't think he'd be a disaster, but he'd certainly be a weakness for us.

p/d wrote:Randall & Smith.

I don't know about Randall still. He's got such good attacking skills and is such a threat, but his kicking isn't consistent and sometimes neither is his passing and decision-making. When he's good, he's phenomenal, but I am worried, especially as part of a very inexperienced backline. Youngs, for all his many flaws, is a calm and experienced head and might be better suited for a rainy day in Edinburgh.

Puja

I like a nuggety SH with physical presence. I'd pick Quirke.

Randall has attacking attributes and I like him being relatively weak at kicking if it means he passes or runs more. I'm not fully convinced about his whole game though at international level. Happy to be proved wrong.

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Are we all 100% that Atkinson just isn’t up to it then? I really like what he offers, in theory, and I’d guess his lack of pace in attack may be less of an issue in a backline full of it, but I don’t know about defensively.

I reserve the right to be proven wrong, but I think so. He just strikes me as not quite having an international top two inches. Both in his one England appearance and in top-level Euro games for Glaws, he's reacted just a touch too slowly when faced with genuine international quality. I don't think he'd be a disaster, but he'd certainly be a weakness for us.

p/d wrote:Randall & Smith.

I don't know about Randall still. He's got such good attacking skills and is such a threat, but his kicking isn't consistent and sometimes neither is his passing and decision-making. When he's good, he's phenomenal, but I am worried, especially as part of a very inexperienced backline. Youngs, for all his many flaws, is a calm and experienced head and might be better suited for a rainy day in Edinburgh.

Puja

Same here. I actually think Atkinson would do OK, but I think the potential upside from a Slade/Marchant combo would be much higher and no more of a risk.

I suspect Atkinson may be a touch short of international class. There's a few guys that have won caps who fall into that category of course, but age is against him as he is unlikely to have much room for improvement. Should have been looked at 2/3 seasons ago.
Playing him well tell us and i wouldnt be averse to seeing him get a start. as i said earlier, his advantage is that he is a genuine IC.
Randall is looking razor sharp right now. He's largely ironed out his passing glitches and is very good off both hands. His breaking play is better than anyone else in the Premiership. The kicking is a weakness, though.

Possible selection logic:

Playing Atkinson allows England to most closely emulate the Quins 8 - 10 - 12 axis (i.e. getting the most out of Smith) with a better pack and outside backs. Does Slade-Marchant (plus the possibility of Nowell as a 'false 14') give you more than this?

Puja wrote:
I don't know about Randall still. He's got such good attacking skills and is such a threat, but his kicking isn't consistent and sometimes neither is his passing and decision-making. When he's good, he's phenomenal, but I am worried, especially as part of a very inexperienced backline. Youngs, for all his many flaws, is a calm and experienced head and might be better suited for a rainy day in Edinburgh.

Puja

Can’t disagree with any of that. And if this game was a WC knockout then I would start Youngs, no doubt….. I just want to see us put pressure on the ‘young bucks’ that could/should be leading us in France

Apparently May will be back for the Wales game at the earliest (at the end of Feb) but is likely to miss the whole tournament. It's a knee issue - he had a fairly major knee injury after the 2015 RWC that kept him out for a year or so didn't he? I'm not sure if he's injured the same knee but can't imagine it's good news if he has.

SDHoneymonster wrote:Apparently May will be back for the Wales game at the earliest (at the end of Feb) but is likely to miss the whole tournament. It's a knee issue - he had a fairly major knee injury after the 2015 RWC that kept him out for a year or so didn't he? I'm not sure if he's injured the same knee but can't imagine it's good news if he has.

Also somewhere on this or another thread mentioned the fact that maybe the fact he's been relatively quiet is because he's carrying a longer term niggle like Ford was. George Skivington's practically confirmed this, so it could be an aggravation of an existing condition.

That’s a shame to hear. He really has been one of the best in the world the last couple of years after working so hard to fight off the scatterbrained, headless chicken label. But after an indifferent last season or so and being 31 (?) could find his spot taken quite promptly?

I guess though Watson is out, Radwan hasn’t convinced, and his general attitude/fitness are supposed to be off the charts, so maybe he doesn’t need to worry.

Anybody know the latest on Coka? Is he written off or what?

Oakboy wrote:Anybody know the latest on Coka? Is he written off or what?

Always injured. Bath do seem to be struggling to keep their back three players fit.

Marler out with Covid.

Mikey Brown wrote:Marler out with Covid.

That's only a week though right? So he can be back on the bench etc.

Raggs wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Marler out with Covid.

That's only a week though right? So he can be back on the bench etc.

Depends on if he's actually got it or if he's just a contact. If he's got it, then it could impact his training for a couple of weeks.

Did he actually have it before South Africa or was that a contact thing? Unlucky to have it twice in such close succession.

Puja

Peej wrote:I'd have Daly and Nowell as the wings, with Malins on the bench.

All this talk of captaincy, is Itoje not going to get the chance to put the lessons of these communication classes into action?

I don’t think Eddy likes the idea of a more cerebral captain who might be prepared to question the wisdom of his decisions

Puja wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Marler out with Covid.

That's only a week though right? So he can be back on the bench etc.

Depends on if he's actually got it or if he's just a contact. If he's got it, then it could impact his training for a couple of weeks.

Did he actually have it before South Africa or was that a contact thing? Unlucky to have it twice in such close succession.

Puja

He had it in the Autumn with mild symptoms.

He’s tested positive again and went into isolation on Tuesday morning according to England press release. Pretty sure rule now is that if you’re fully vaxxed you can come out of isolation after 5 days as long as you have a negative lat flo. So all being well and fingers crossed he’ll be fine to do full weeks training from next Monday.

FKAS wrote:Always injured. Bath do seem to be struggling to keep their back three players fit.

And our front 3.
And our middle 9.