RugbyRebels

p/d wrote:Well, that’s Ire v Italy done and dusted

morepork wrote:

p/d wrote:Well, that’s Ire v Italy done and dusted

That's a harsh red.

Puja wrote:Marcus Smith's

morepork wrote:and now they are forced by the law to play down to 13.

Buggaluggs wrote:

morepork wrote:and now they are forced by the law to play down to 13.

I tuned in late. I don't understand why they are down to 13

Buggaluggs wrote:I don't understand why they are down to 13

Which Tyler wrote:

Puja wrote:Marcus Smith's

I've said similar about Smith before (and again this morning, elsewhere), mostly at club level.

He's excellent at seeing things for himself, and very good at seeing things for people on his shoulders - but he's not (yet) a game manager, he's not seeing an opportunity for a player half a pitch away, and he's not manipulating a defence over several phases.
He's got the ability, and confidence to try the high-risk stuff that makes for a highlights reel, gets the crow roaring, and can win a match through inspiring his team; but not currently the man I'd want to win a game through managing the tactics over 80 minutes.
I'm sure he'll get there, and he's got a year and a bit to learn it. I hope he does.

Which Tyler wrote:

Puja wrote:Marcus Smith's

I've said similar about Smith before (and again this morning, elsewhere), mostly at club level.

He's excellent at seeing things for himself, and very good at seeing things for people on his shoulders - but he's not (yet) a game manager, he's not seeing an opportunity for a player half a pitch away, and he's not manipulating a defence over several phases.
He's got the ability, and confidence to try the high-risk stuff that makes for a highlights reel, gets the crow roaring, and can win a match through inspiring his team; but not currently the man I'd want to win a game through managing the tactics over 80 minutes.
I'm sure he'll get there, and he's got a year and a bit to learn it. I hope he does.

Spiffy wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Puja wrote:Marcus Smith's

I've said similar about Smith before (and again this morning, elsewhere), mostly at club level.

He's excellent at seeing things for himself, and very good at seeing things for people on his shoulders - but he's not (yet) a game manager, he's not seeing an opportunity for a player half a pitch away, and he's not manipulating a defence over several phases.
He's got the ability, and confidence to try the high-risk stuff that makes for a highlights reel, gets the crow roaring, and can win a match through inspiring his team; but not currently the man I'd want to win a game through managing the tactics over 80 minutes.
I'm sure he'll get there, and he's got a year and a bit to learn it. I hope he does.

Yes. He has a few things to learn. He just turned 23 last week and is scoring practically all of England's points.

Youngs, on the other hand, is 32, has 115 caps and is still playing like a drain. He also has a year and a half to improve, but don't hold your breath.

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: I've said similar about Smith before (and again this morning, elsewhere), mostly at club level.

He's excellent at seeing things for himself, and very good at seeing things for people on his shoulders - but he's not (yet) a game manager, he's not seeing an opportunity for a player half a pitch away, and he's not manipulating a defence over several phases.
He's got the ability, and confidence to try the high-risk stuff that makes for a highlights reel, gets the crow roaring, and can win a match through inspiring his team; but not currently the man I'd want to win a game through managing the tactics over 80 minutes.
I'm sure he'll get there, and he's got a year and a bit to learn it. I hope he does.

Yes. He has a few things to learn. He just turned 23 last week and is scoring practically all of England's points.

Youngs, on the other hand, is 32, has 115 caps and is still playing like a drain. He also has a year and a half to improve, but don't hold your breath.

23 isn’t that young frankly, but he’s playing in a strange team

Puja wrote:Unpopular hot take - most of this is Marcus Smith's fault and we'd've been much better if we had Farrell fit to play 12.

Smith is doubtedly a talent and a superstar in the making, but it's notable that every single bit of good attacking play that we've had has come off him making a break or half-break. He's creating personal space and opportunities, but he's not making any opportunities for anyone else, save that they're on his shoulder when he makes a break. Our outside backs are hesitant to run lines because they can't read if the ball's going to go through his hands or if he's going to make a little jink and hotstep himself.

If you compare him to Ford marshalling people around and barking orders, he's not in the same league - that's not a condemnation of him as a player, but an acknowledgement that he's very young, very inexperienced, and gets to play in a club team where everything is built around him (to the extent that they go to sh*t when he's not available). Plus he's nervous and eager to impress and making the wrong decisions by trying things himself, not realising that the space closes down a lot faster at international and you don't get the liberty to try and then pull out of it that you do at Prem level.

Having Farrell at 12 would've allowed him to be the one barking orders and taking the 10 spot away from Smith when the situation just needed simple play, rather than constantly looking for an opportunity for a break. It would give Smith the flexibility to float and enter the line when it was on and also give him experience of seeing how its done and how effective it can be to let the ball go and not trying everything yourself.

We might be better long term for Smith getting this experience. Right now, he is the main reason that our backline is a mess.

Puja

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:
Yes. He has a few things to learn. He just turned 23 last week and is scoring practically all of England's points.

Youngs, on the other hand, is 32, has 115 caps and is still playing like a drain. He also has a year and a half to improve, but don't hold your breath.

23 isn’t that young frankly, but he’s playing in a strange team

You are right if course. But it is still quite early in his international career. I agree he has to broaden his vision to a wider, more team-orientated approach, but that will come. For that he will need some help both inside and outside the FH position at 9 and 12. I just don't like to see an obviously talented player get some flack (even if deserved) while his ponderous mates in the three quarters keep turning in sub par performances with little negative comment. Only last week I read some article talking about the "electric" Slade. (I think he's recently blown a fuse.)

p/d wrote:Should focus on caps not age. This strange criticism of Smith raises the question as to what they are instructing him to do at training. Not like they haven’t had in camp over the last 6 weeks

Mikey Brown wrote:Yep, who could have guessed that trying to reshape/rebuild the entire 8/9/10/12 axis in one go might cause some issues. In some respects EJ has done a fantastic job with planning for the future, and in others he looks completely stumped.

jngf wrote:
I have to say that I’ve actually started to enjoy England play in this far more attack focussed and imo exciting style. For me a recall of Farrell to the starting XV would be a return to a more stodgy style and as such a retrograde move.

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote: 23 isn’t that young frankly, but he’s playing in a strange team

You are right if course. But it is still quite early in his international career. I agree he has to broaden his vision to a wider, more team-orientated approach, but that will come. For that he will need some help both inside and outside the FH position at 9 and 12. I just don't like to see an obviously talented player get some flack (even if deserved) while his ponderous mates in the three quarters keep turning in sub par performances with little negative comment. Only last week I read some article talking about the "electric" Slade. (I think he's recently blown a fuse.)

I’m trying to offer constructive criticism. He got motm

Banquo wrote:

p/d wrote:Should focus on caps not age. This strange criticism of Smith raises the question as to what they are instructing him to do at training. Not like they haven’t had in camp over the last 6 weeks

He has 7 caps then. Why is the criticism’strange’? Acknowledging that he has a great skill set but is in a misfiring team is surely valid?

p/d wrote:

jngf wrote:
I have to say that I’ve actually started to enjoy England play in this far more attack focussed and imo exciting style. For me a recall of Farrell to the starting XV would be a return to a more stodgy style and as such a retrograde move.

Well we did achieve the impossible, and make Cuthbert shine

Spiffy wrote:You are right if course. But it is still quite early in his international career. I agree he has to broaden his vision to a wider, more team-orientated approach, but that will come. For that he will need some help both inside and outside the FH position at 9 and 12. I just don't like to see an obviously talented player get some flack (even if deserved) while his ponderous mates in the three quarters keep turning in sub par performances with little negative comment. Only last week I read some article talking about the "electric" Slade. (I think he's recently blown a fuse.)

Spiffy wrote: I am not having a pop at you, but some other posters here seem to be laying many of England's woes on Smith's shoulders when the faults lie elsewhere.