Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Which Tyler]

Gotta say, I do think I remember p/d always being anti-Jones; but I don't remember anyone at all saying that Burt should have kept his job.

[Mellsblue]

p/d wanted Lancaster to keep his job based solely on the fact he wore a Daz white anthem jacket.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Probably thought he was the kid from the persil advert all grown up.

[p/d]

Gotta say, I do think I remember p/d always being anti-Jones; but I don't remember anyone at all saying that Burt should have kept his job.

You would be right WT - and I certainly didn’t make a fuss about Burt going. I actually wanted Timmy Mallett

[Epaminondas Pules]

Lots of noise coming out now about how toxic Borthwick is with players and staff! Senior players picking him up on it! Sounds like a really horrible environment!

[Mellsblue]

Does he use too many exclamation marks?!!!!!!?

[Mikey Brown]

Lots of noise coming out now about how toxic Borthwick is with players and staff! Senior players picking him up on it! Sounds like a really horrible environment!

Can you be any more specific please?!?!?!!!

[Puja]

Lots of noise coming out now about how toxic Borthwick is with players and staff! Senior players picking him up on it! Sounds like a really horrible environment!

Really? That's very surprising, considering how many people who worked with him for Leicester were happy to sign up with him for England.

Puja

[Banquo]

Lots of noise coming out now about how toxic Borthwick is with players and staff! Senior players picking him up on it! Sounds like a really horrible environment!

Really? That's very surprising, considering how many people who worked with him for Leicester were happy to sign up with him for England.

Puja

Think I said before the word from pre RWC camps were that they were pretty grim and unrelenting, but at that point the players felt that they were getting benefit; however, you can see that could tip over into head coach angst if things aren't going well.

[Scrumhead]

Lots of noise coming out now about how toxic Borthwick is with players and staff! Senior players picking him up on it! Sounds like a really horrible environment!

Really? That's very surprising, considering how many people who worked with him for Leicester were happy to sign up with him for England.

Puja

Our performances left a lot to be desired, but with a couple of potential exceptions (Arundell springs to mind), the players came across as being very ‘together’. That doesn’t hint towards a horrible/toxic environment IMO.

I guess it’s possible the players were coming together through shared displeasure, but I didn’t get that impression.

Also, let’s be honest … after the past few years under Eddie, I’d have thought anyone would have been welcome relief.

[twitchy]

I think there have been quite a few little comments. As EP says in the match thread , George talks about being "back in a positive environment". Which could be interpreted a few ways.

[Puja]

I think there have been quite a few little comments. As EP says in the match thread , George talks about being "back in a positive environment". Which could be interpreted a few ways.

I don't think he actually said it like that though. The context was a question about how quickly the internationals had reintegrated and he was saying that it wasn't a chore to come back to Saracens because it was a great, positive environment and they loved doing their bit for the club. It didn't come off (to me) like an "I'm just glad to be away from internationals" comment at all.

Puja

[p/d]

Not so sure. The ‘positive environment’ sounds loaded to me.

Add to that Sinfield leaving, Ford dumped to bench and Walker apparently still stuck in his hotel room.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Lots of noise coming out now about how toxic Borthwick is with players and staff! Senior players picking him up on it! Sounds like a really horrible environment!

Really? That's very surprising, considering how many people who worked with him for Leicester were happy to sign up with him for England.

Puja

Think I said before the word from pre RWC camps were that they were pretty grim and unrelenting, but at that point the players felt that they were getting benefit; however, you can see that could tip over into head coach angst if things aren't going well.

This. Was chatting to Charlie Felix who said very similar about pre RWC camps. His time at Tigers was referred to as an ‘intense’ environment. Successful mind, which helps cover up any issues.

Jamie George’s comments were very telling yesterday.

[Oakboy]

Maybe the players just have to get used to SB and his dour ways. Anyone expecting charisma and flair can't have been too perceptive in the past, let's face it.

In Jones's early days loads of adverse comments floated around these threads - always countered by results. If Jones kept winning all collateral damage just had to be accepted.

I just hope that SB can add something more in terms of general team/squad spirit. The first step is probably getting his coaching crew upgraded. Then, he needs to show some constructive thinking. That could mean accepting that some senior players cannot perform beyond past limitations. If he has difficulty with the evolutionary inevitability of that he might struggle, I'd guess - in terms of the players' opinion of him anyway.

Hopefully, he is intelligent enough to be one step ahead.

[Puja]

Not so sure. The ‘positive environment’ sounds loaded to me.

Add to that Sinfield leaving, Ford dumped to bench and Walker apparently still stuck in his hotel room.

I think you're reading a lot into two words there. And your supporting evidence is 1) something which hasn't been confirmed anywhere and so far appears to just be speculation, 2) someone getting dropped for THE TEST MATCH ANIMAL which sadly he should be used to by now, and 3) someone who's dubiously test match quality not getting test match time after a long period in camp.

I'm not saying it's impossible that this rumour is true, mind. I'm just saying it's an awful lot to extrapolate from George being enthusiastic about Saracens, especially since George has always been enthusiastic for Saracens and never shy about mentioning it.

Puaj

[FKAS]

Not so sure. The ‘positive environment’ sounds loaded to me.

Add to that Sinfield leaving, Ford dumped to bench and Walker apparently still stuck in his hotel room.

I think you're reading a lot into two words there. And your supporting evidence is 1) something which hasn't been confirmed anywhere and so far appears to just be speculation, 2) someone getting dropped for THE TEST MATCH ANIMAL which sadly he should be used to by now, and 3) someone who's dubiously test match quality not getting test match time after a long period in camp.

I'm not saying it's impossible that this rumour is true, mind. I'm just saying it's an awful lot to extrapolate from George being enthusiastic about Saracens, especially since George has always been enthusiastic for Saracens and never shy about mentioning it.

Puaj

The Saracens players have always maintained the environment there is "special" or whatever buzzword the marketing team have decided upon at the time. George's comments don't come a across as odd.

[Mikey Brown]

It'll be interesting to see how this works while going on at the same time as the 6 nations.

Arguably you'd pick the fringe-but-not-quite-making-the-23 players like Pearson, Atkinson, Murley etc. in an A side if this game happened in isolation, but players who make the full 6 nations squad will presumably miss out even if they're not needed on the weekends.

I'm worried we'll see basically the same squad we have now (minus Lawes, Youngs, May) for the 6 nations, with a bunch of promising 22 year olds playing Portugal, and potentially still be left wondering if guys in the middle like Willis are up to it.

That's partly my worry, though some are more edge cases. Obviously Lawes, Youngs and May are gone. I'd wager Marler, Cole and Care will be eased off into the sunset maybe. Billy on form shouldn't be near it, but there is a while to go before the 6 Nations, but everything says he should be nowhere near.

No Ribbans or Marchant.

I suspect Farrell is going nowhere (sadly), George and Ford likewise. Manu, Daly, who knows.

Fair enough. That's a few more names than I'd remembered.

I guess Jack Willis frees up an EPS spot. Do we bother continuing to give Ludlam and Sinkler caps when they're off next season?

I hope we've completely given up on this idea that Vunipola "just needs a run of games" to play himself back in to form (or a drastically different physical makeup) but I fear he'll play well for Saracens again and the lure of "attracting defenders" will be too great.

I wonder whether it's time to stop hoping Anthony Watson can reliably stay fit too, fantastic as he is.

Does anybody know if the EPS get completely reset at this point? Is Borthwick completely free to start again?

Posted this in the A team thread but I guess it's hardly relevant anymore.

Though I think all I've actually done is reiterate the list of players in the first post on this thread.

[Puja]

I believe Stone Ballast can start from scratch.

Puja

[Stom]

This is Borthwick, I very much doubt we'll see revolution, it'll be evolution over a few seasons.

First, we've got the obvious ones. No more George, Lawes, Cole, Marler, Youngs, May, Care.

Then, do we replace the deadwood who don't get a look in or who are leaving abroad? Billy, Walker, Malins, Ribbans, Marchant, Willis?

If we cut all of those players...that's a sizeable turnover. You'd basically be starting from:

Genge, Rodd
Dan
Sinckler, Stuart
Itoje
Chessum, Martin
Curry, Underhill, Ludlam, Earl
Mitchell
Farrell, Ford, Smith
Daly, Arundell
Tuilagi, Laurence
Steward

Let's be honest. We can give up on England until 'Lukewarm Child' retires. He's not going to be dropped. So it's all moot.

It's hard to care.

What the hell dirt does he have? He really is the player who suits the government who overlaps his career best though. I can't think of a better representation of WTF are you doing there? How are you qualified for that job??? than the lukewarm boy himself.

[Stom]

Seriously, it's just like...

I start to look at the England squad with gusto, thinking that there's going to be good from this. Borthwick's major CHANGES have been good in all. Chessum, Martin, Mitchell, Marchant back at centre.

I see how many changes are probable, not just possible, and it's like: that's a good start.

And then I just realise it doesn't matter.

Farrell will still be there.

He's not retiring. He's still going to be there being a handbrake on proceedings.

And I just can't care anymore. I'm done.

[Which Tyler]

What the hell dirt does he have? He really is the player who suits the government who overlaps his career best though. I can't think of a better representation of WTF are you doing there? How are you qualified for that job??? than the lukewarm boy himself.

Steve Borthwick?
Martin Johnson?
2011 version of Stuart Lancaster?
Rob Andrews?

[Banquo]

What the hell dirt does he have? He really is the player who suits the government who overlaps his career best though. I can't think of a better representation of WTF are you doing there? How are you qualified for that job??? than the lukewarm boy himself.

Steve Borthwick?
Martin Johnson?
2011 version of Stuart Lancaster?
Rob Andrews?

Bill Sweeney

[Stom]

What the hell dirt does he have? He really is the player who suits the government who overlaps his career best though. I can't think of a better representation of WTF are you doing there? How are you qualified for that job??? than the lukewarm boy himself.

Steve Borthwick?
Martin Johnson?
2011 version of Stuart Lancaster?
Rob Andrews?

Owen Farrell.

But yes, your point stands

All a bit of a shit show

[Puja]

What the hell dirt does he have? He really is the player who suits the government who overlaps his career best though. I can't think of a better representation of WTF are you doing there? How are you qualified for that job??? than the lukewarm boy himself.

Steve Borthwick?
Martin Johnson?
2011 version of Stuart Lancaster?
Rob Andrews?

Dean Ryan seems more egregious than Andrew.

Puja