RugbyRebels

The public are in large part to blame for all this. Typically we free ride the process, we don't get involved in selecting or lobbying MPs, oftentime people don't even vote

Digby wrote:The public are in large part to blame for all this. Typically we free ride the process, we don't get involved in selecting or lobbying MPs, oftentime people don't even vote

True-Every nation gets the government it deserves, as someone said.

Banquo wrote:Every time I see three or more people on TV talking about Brexit, it turns into a slanging match with four different opinions.....and generally the opinions are based on a fallacy and/or a lack of understanding. MPs are the worst culprits for this- how can they look in the mirror when they don't understand the basics of their role; the quality of your average politician is appallingly low, and this has been brutally exposed in all this. How can they recover public trust after all this has been laid bare?

Occasionally I listen to a half sane MP and think things aren’t too bad. Then Bill Cash opens his mouth.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:Every time I see three or more people on TV talking about Brexit, it turns into a slanging match with four different opinions.....and generally the opinions are based on a fallacy and/or a lack of understanding. MPs are the worst culprits for this- how can they look in the mirror when they don't understand the basics of their role; the quality of your average politician is appallingly low, and this has been brutally exposed in all this. How can they recover public trust after all this has been laid bare?

Occasionally I listen to a half sane MP and think things aren’t too bad. Then Bill Cash opens his mouth.

It is very occasional. I like Stella Creasey, and then she suggests a people's assembly.....

I think a general election is very much on the cards. I doubt that the result will change much as there is so much confusion amongst MPs at the moment but I just can’t see the government surviving this.

Monday, 1 April: MPs hold another set of votes on various Brexit options to see if they can agree on a way forward

Wednesday, 3 April: Potentially another round of so-called "indicative votes"

Wednesday, 10 April : Emergency summit of EU leaders to consider any UK request for further extension

Friday, 12 April: Brexit day, if UK does not seek/EU does not grant further delay

23-26 May: European Parliamentary elections

The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.

In news that I'm sure will shock everyone, the Tories appear to split on the prospect of a snap election at the moment: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-47763034


Of course, a new GE (breaking 2 of May's promises, which is obviously so much better than breaking one by holding a 2nd ref.) Is nothing to do with what's good for the country, and would do absolutely nothing to solve the current clusterfuck. It will split her own party anlittle worse than they already are (or is she relying on the old line that when push comes to shove, conservatives fall in line?). But that it would split labour and drag them down to the same level.

I guess playing party politics is better than playing civil warfare, but... for once it's be good if an MP paid some thought to the good of the country

Which Tyler wrote:In news that I'm sure will shock everyone, the Tories appear to split on the prospect of a snap election at the moment: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-47763034


Of course, a new GE (breaking 2 of May's promises, which is obviously so much better than breaking one by holding a 2nd ref.) Is nothing to do with what's good for the country, and would do absolutely nothing to solve the current clusterfuck. It will split her own party anlittle worse than they already are (or is she relying on the old line that when push comes to shove, conservatives fall in line?). But that it would split labour and drag them down to the same level.

I guess playing party politics is better than playing civil warfare, but... for once it's be good if an MP paid some thought to the good of the country

I can't think of any option now which isn't bad for the country in some shape or form- to me, the least bad option is to just revoke a50 and say bollox to the leavers- they've had their chance to vote the WA through and leave the EU and chose not to. Then send all the (Remain) MPs back to their (leave) constituencies to explain why they think staying in is best.

Referendum- bad; GE- bad; no-deal- bad; WA plus customs union- pointless. Staying in- good.

Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.

To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.

Mellsblue wrote:

Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.

To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.

That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.

To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.

That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.

Puja

Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.

That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.

Puja

Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.

Oh. Cool. How?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:
That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.

Puja

Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.

Oh. Cool. How?

Puja

May's WA is the obvious answer.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.

That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.

Puja

Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.

Despite being an avid remoaner, I agree(d) that we should try and respect not only the referendum result, but the 2017 GE result which imo endorsed leave; however, the Leave camp plus reluctant respecters had that chance three times and turned it down because of an utter refusal to budge a nanometer. Leaving then negotiating a 'new customs union deal' is just unbelievably pointless, and those proposing it are being dishonest. Given the leavers/respecters have dropped the ball, parliament needs now to make the case for staying and not cop out by throwing it back to the people, who tbh haven't much of a clue

Mellsblue wrote:

Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.

To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.

Wasn't advocating a wasteful GE, just frustration at the Executive.

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:
That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.

Puja

Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.

Oh. Cool. How?

Puja

By the politicians growing up. Not going to happen I know, but an election won’t solve that problem.

Galfon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.

To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.

Wasn't advocating a wasteful GE, just frustration at the Executive.

The executive has made an absolute balls up of it but parliament as whole haven’t been any better.
I also feel incredibly frustrated but a GE isn’t the way out of it. Sadly, if next week doesn’t yield a result, I think a second ref is. That pains me to say, as those who have refused to accept the result from day one get rewarded for chucking their toys out the pram.
Whichever way we find out of this mess, the fallout will not be pretty.

There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Do you you have any evidence for this?

As for Brexiteers compromising, I’ll stick to the line that they won so shouldn’t have to compromise. It was a binary referendum, after all.

Tbh, I was just talking about MPs (if you knew this, I’d love to see your evidence).

That it has become a fuck up is on Remainers as well as Brexiteers. I doubt both sides would have become as entrenched as they have if Remain MPs had worked constructively towards enacting the result of the referendum. We’d probably be serenely sailing towards Common Market 2.0 if they had. As it is, there has been a very obvious sense that a large number were looking to overturn the result from day 1.

Banquo wrote: Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

Agree with all of this, with the caveat that there will never be a massive win either way. Depressingly, even once politically and legally resolved, this will rumble on for years.

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

Theresa May's Scissored Isle

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote: Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.