Brexit delayed

[Digby]

In isolation I'm neither surprised nor alarmed the indicative votes have yet to yield much, which is why they should have taken place after the referendum not now. The alarm is we've only just over a week left
Also the party leaders are doing their utmost to disrupt by whipping their MPs, it's still firmly party over country

[Puja]

Brewery Trip

Ayes - 267
Noes- 289

More like:

Leaving the Brewery
Ayes - 180
Noes - 382

Having an Alcoholic Drink
Ayes - 272
Noes - 280

Puja

[Banquo]

Brewery Trip

Ayes - 267
Noes- 289

More like:

Leaving the Brewery
Ayes - 180
Noes - 382

Having an Alcoholic Drink
Ayes - 272
Noes - 280

Puja

If you have to explain a joke....

[Banquo]

BTW.....is it definite that for an indicative vote to be taken seriously it needs a true majority, ie 320 votes.

Is it also now true that the WA has so far got the most votes for?

[Puja]

Brewery Trip

Ayes - 267
Noes- 289

More like:

Leaving the Brewery
Ayes - 180
Noes - 382

Having an Alcoholic Drink
Ayes - 272
Noes - 280

Puja

If you have to explain a joke....

No, no, I got it. I just thought mine was funnier.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Robert Saunders on twitter saying exactly what i'm thinking now -

A lot of MPs looked exhausted & emotionally wrung out tonight. They're making hellishly difficult choices under a hail of emotional & physical abuse, while the doomsday clock ticks down to midnight. No one thinks clearly in these conditions. For all our sakes, we need a time out.
We are trying to cram into three days a debate that should have begun three years ago: exploring what the options might be, what trade-offs they involve and whether they command a majority. It hardly matters any longer who's to blame: this is an insane way to decide our future.
No one *wants* another year of this, but it's more important to do this well than to do it quickly. So let's extend for a year & use the summer - & the EP elections - for a serious ventilation of the options. Citizens Assemblies, town-hall meetings, seminars for MPs - the lot.
Let's do what we should have done in the first place & open up a serious public debate, which accepts that we're choosing from imperfect alternatives - all of which (including Remain) come with costs & trade-offs. Then let's try again, refreshed & better informed, in the Autumn.

[Banquo]

More like:

Leaving the Brewery
Ayes - 180
Noes - 382

Having an Alcoholic Drink
Ayes - 272
Noes - 280

Puja

If you have to explain a joke....

No, no, I got it. I just thought mine was funnier.

Puja

Its the way you tell em, or not.

[gransoporro]

I apologise, I just do not understand what is going on. Even if I read the news pretty regularly.

What is Parliament voting about these days?

And isn't all this voting late? It should have happened at least 1 year ago. Where was the time lost?

And why is Boris Johnson still a significant political figure? When I left the UK he was a comedian, basically.

[Banquo]

a- I apologise, I just do not understand what is going on. Even if I read the news pretty regularly.

b- What is Parliament voting about these days?

And isn't all this voting late? It should have happened at least 1 year ago. Where was the time lost?

c- And why is Boris Johnson still a significant political figure? When I left the UK he was a comedian, basically.

a- neither do we, really. Its when plebiscite meets representative democracy, and its fckd our politicians brains.
b- what 'sort of brexit', but its only happening now because the MPs didnt like the treaty 'brokered' by Theresa May, rebelled a bit and took the agenda their way. Unfortunately they don't like what they have proposed to themselves either
c- God knows, he's a massive twat.

[Banquo]

Gawd...bring the popcorn

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47794235

[Puja]

Jesus. There's just too much there to mock. I've got a log-jam of sarcastic quips trying to force their way out of my brain like the Stooges stuck in a door.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Local councils have been told by central govt that they can start making plans to hold EU elections and that any reasonable expenses will be reimbursed should the election not go ahead. Only yesterday the official line from no10 was that there would definitely not be EU elections.

[Which Tyler]

Just got in; surely I've got this wrong. Please tell me I've got this wrong.

So... She's asking the EU for an extension, but not giving them any reason to.
She's inviting Corbyn to talk about compromise, but A] not actually telling him this, and B] compromise JUST include her existing working agreement, and all of her red lines, and no new negotiating.

WTF?

[Mikey Brown]

I'm starting to wonder if any of us are ever going to see how this ends.

[Lizard]

I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

[Puja]

I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

You're not kidding. One might also surmise that it should've been done before even lighting the Article 50 fuse or having an election. But, then at that point, May and the Conservatives were still at "Crush the Saboteurs!" levels of confidence in their own rectitude, and so didn't need to talk to or compromise with anyone.

Just got in; surely I've got this wrong. Please tell me I've got this wrong.

So... She's asking the EU for an extension, but not giving them any reason to.
She's inviting Corbyn to talk about compromise, but A] not actually telling him this, and B] compromise JUST include her existing working agreement, and all of her red lines, and no new negotiating.

WTF?

The best kind of May compromise is where everyone just agrees that they were wrong to disagree with her. The second best is just agreeing that we'll discuss that part at some point later.

Puja

[Banquo]

I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

Easy with hindsight, but only the DUP, Tories and Labour are actually in favour of Brexit, and Labour only nominally (as in Corbyn and McDonnell) in terms of MP support. Given that Tory and Labour couldn't be much further apart politically, May and Corbyn obviously hate each other, and Labours policy is a- to force a GE, b- to force a referendum, and c- a Brexit policy rejected three times now and in that order, its quite difficult to see how that could have played out. Libdems want a 2nd referendum, though some cracks in their huge representation of 11, SNP implacably opposed, ditto PC and Greens; Independents (Change UK) somewhere between referendum and remain.

Plus May isn't built for compromise, and the right wing would have had her out sharpish for even talking to Labour- as you can see from today's reaction.

Looks like we are headed for WA w Customs Union in the Political Declaration; I think that's daft, but hey.

[Stones of granite]

I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

Of course, it is what should have happened. However, this is the UK, and politics is firmly rooted in the two-tribe, playground style. A Tory minister would rather be found in a compromising situation in a bush on Hampstead Heath than be found compromising with Labour.

If there's one positive to come out of this debacle, it is that people are starting to ask questions about our political system. I remain pessimistic that anything will ever change, though.

[Banquo]

I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

Of course, it is what should have happened. However, this is the UK, and politics is firmly rooted in the two-tribe, playground style. A Tory minister would rather be found in a compromising situation in a bush on Hampstead Heath than be found compromising with Labour.

If there's one positive to come out of this debacle, it is that people are starting to ask questions about our political system. I remain pessimistic that anything will ever change, though.

Think it might have been possible pre-May and Corbyn tbh maybe back as far as John Major.

My big question about our political system is why are we paying parliament wages and expenses on such a useless shower of crap; very few seem to understand that their job is as part of the legislative system and they need to know and understand detail as well as policy and principle, and representing the best interests of their constituents.

(of course there is the quite decent argument that if we paid them more, we'd get a better quality of MP. Moot at present)

[Which Tyler]

Slash EU regulations on wildlife protection and drug safety trials after Brexit, Michael Gove urges

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 49041.html

[Which Tyler]

Am I reading that scrolling news right? Another conservative MP (Nigel Adams) has resigned (this time because May is TOO willing to compromise)?

Does that bring Conservatives down to 311? And therefore Con+DUP can't bring a majority in the house of commons, even without Sinn Fein taking their seats?

ETA: No sorry, I think it's now 312+10, with 8 empty seats (7 Sinn Fein + 1 vacant*), so they can combine for a majority of 1 - assuming the latest update I looked at included Nick Boles' switch

* Newport West, Labour since 1987, by-election tomorrow, voted Leave in 2016

[Banquo]

Am I reading that scrolling news right? Another conservative MP (Nigel Adams) has resigned (this time because May is TOO willing to compromise)?

Does that bring Conservatives down to 311? And therefore Con+DUP can't bring a majority in the house of commons, even without Sinn Fein taking their seats?

ETA: No sorry, I think it's now 312+10, with 8 empty seats (7 Sinn Fein + 1 vacant), so they can combine for a majority of 1

Nigel Adams has resigned you are right

Think however, Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

[Which Tyler]

Nigel Evans probably?

Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

Nope, Adams, complete with more divisive, arrogant comments about the enemy:

[Banquo]

Nigel Evans probably?

Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

Nope, Adams, complete with more divisive, arrogant comments about the enemy:

correct, edited - though not sure he has resigned from tory party.

Both enemies in that view

[Which Tyler]

Nigel Adams has resigned you are right

Think however, Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

We're editting over each other.
He's resigning the government whip, which I think is the same as the Tory whip, but it might be technically different.

May's not interested in doing a deal with Corbyn, just trying to set him up as being responsible for her own failures. Corbyn will demand things she's unwilling to consider, and possibly even unwilling to hear. It's a ploy to kick the can down the road, and to damage the opposition, and give her supporters a scale goat they're desperate to blame for everything anyway.