Brexit delayed

[Banquo]

Enjoying the warnings from the Tory right about participation in elections being an existential threat to their party. When people were worried about the national economy that’s just project fear and to be easily dismissed, but the important stuff like the Conservative party, now that we need to pay heed to

The gang of 32 or whatever need sectioning.

[Digby]

Enjoying the warnings from the Tory right about participation in elections being an existential threat to their party. When people were worried about the national economy that’s just project fear and to be easily dismissed, but the important stuff like the Conservative party, now that we need to pay heed to

The gang of 32 or whatever need sectioning.

So too their counterparts in Labour, and yet one of those groups could soon dominate government

[Banquo]

Enjoying the warnings from the Tory right about participation in elections being an existential threat to their party. When people were worried about the national economy that’s just project fear and to be easily dismissed, but the important stuff like the Conservative party, now that we need to pay heed to

The gang of 32 or whatever need sectioning.

So too their counterparts in Labour, and yet one of those groups could soon dominate government

I thought that too, but couldn't identify quite as many Labour loons.

[Digby]

The gang of 32 or whatever need sectioning.

So too their counterparts in Labour, and yet one of those groups could soon dominate government

I thought that too, but couldn't identify quite as many Labour loons.

There'd be a similar number in the Shadow Cabinet, or certainly those attending those meetings once close acolytes are accounted for. Now perhaps some of the Shadow Cabinet aren't howl at the moon types, but there’s enough Dennis Skinner types on the back benches to fill in

[Banquo]

So too their counterparts in Labour, and yet one of those groups could soon dominate government

I thought that too, but couldn't identify quite as many Labour loons.

There'd be a similar number in the Shadow Cabinet, or certainly those attending those meetings once close acolytes are accounted for. Now perhaps some of the Shadow Cabinet aren't howl at the moon types, but there’s enough Dennis Skinner types on the back benches to fill in

we appear to be bald men fighting over a comb

[Banquo]

It is amazing that the centre ground doesn't look like being occupied any time soon.

[Which Tyler]

Theresa May "It's everybody else's fault. Now damn well agree with me!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47842572

[Mellsblue]

This pretty much sums up my feelings about it all. Save, I’m not ready to accept a second ref, even if I think that’s where we will end up:




JANICE TURNER
april 5 2019, 5:00pm, the times
Let arrogant Remain ultras have their vote

janice turner

The pro and anti EU extremes are as bad as each other, but a multichoice referendum is the only way out of this chaos



The very words “People’s Vote” make me want to riot in Waitrose. The breezy arrogance of implying the People didn’t Vote last time; the twee, self-righteous Prosecco Drinkers Against Beastliness placards, the phoney equivalence between loving Europe and things European with membership of the EU.

At a party the day after the referendum, I had a stand-up row with a politician who subsequently became a leading People’s Vote campaigner. Before Article 50 was even triggered, let alone negotiations begun or a deal struck, he angrily demanded a re-run. For Remain ultras, it was never about a “confirmatory ballot”, a democratic bonus ball of “taking the decision back to the people”. Such sophistry and spin. It was always, always, about reversing a loathed result.

I voted Remain. People’s Vote marchers are among my dearest friends but they are not, and will never be, my people. Brexit has flung 65 per cent of the population, according to research by BritainThinks, to two opposing poles. Far more than party politics, Brexit is about gut not head. So the minority in the centre, what I call “Brexit non-binary”, including many Remain Londoners from Leave towns like me, have endured three years of roiling, upset guts.

It has been hard hearing our communities caricatured as duped and bigoted. (“I’m glad my constituents aren’t as stupid as yours,” said a Remain area Labour MP to another with a Leave seat.) But even worse is glib talk the referendum can just be shelved, an embarrassment not to be mentioned again, and no one will care. (No one who matters that is.) Fears that revocation will fuel the far right are dismissed as fear-mongering or pandering to neo-fascists. Disquiet about future voter apathy is met with a shrug.

I’ve watched appalled as politicians on the left used every power at their disposal to stymie compromise, vote down feasible deals, dice with the economic calamity of no-deal, until all escape routes are blocked and a second vote can be the only outcome. They are as intransigent and reckless as the ERG they revile. Yet they justify the prolonged uncertainty crippling businesses, the miserable anxiety of voters, the crash-testing of our democracy until every gram of respect for its process and faith in its public servants is trashed, because they are the good guys. They have moral licence, a higher purpose. They’d burn Britain down to get that second vote.


And OK, you win, guys! I respect the 25 Labour MPs who wrote to Jeremy Corbyn saying a second referendum would divide Britain further. (Indeed Remainers like Caroline Flint who shelved party politicking to support the withdrawal agreement are among the handful with integrity.) But it’s too late. We are so riven now, so broken, upset and disillusioned, our system so deadlocked, that if we are ever to put this behind us, we need some final, all-encompassing democratic act. I don’t care about Brexit any more, I fear for my country.

A People’s Vote cannot be a two-way, deal or remain choice. Haven’t we heard endlessly that binary referendums are too simplistic? Rather, the ballot must contain something everyone can put a cross against, including no-deal. Only when that option is democratically defeated will the ERG side lose velocity. It is risky when some polls show 41 per cent support: no-deal could become the default oh-just-bloody-get-on-with-it option, a protest vote V-sign as Leave was itself in 2016. But it is, in part, the People’s Vote camp’s obduracy which has kept no-deal in play. So let them set foot in Wolverhampton or Wigan and fight it door to door. Those who wish to take Brexit “back to the people” must trust the people — even to run with scissors.



Besides, Remain would also be on the ballot as an equally clear option. Dominic Cummings has said a Leave campaign would have a simple “Tell Them Again” message. But this time the pro-EU campaign will not represent the dreary risk-averse status quo with platforms full of chiding Europhile suits. It would be led by bright-eyed, energised young people choreographed by Danny Boyle, an insurgent, dynamic, “you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s (nearly) gone” euro-fest.

But the ballot should also contain every option the EU would allow: Mrs May’s deal, a customs union, Norway etc. And voters should not just have a first choice but a second and third, with the least popular options eliminated and votes redistributed. A sort of Indicative People’s Vote.

Too complicated for the electorate? Not after three years of mass education in constitutional law and international treaty-making, as intense as any university degree. It will be expensive and contentious. But the only way of ending our crude, screaming era is by assembling a granular picture of what the country actually wants.

Let us not pretend it won’t be the most vicious political campaign in British history. A Game of Thrones finale power struggle to the death. But without it, what the referendum unleashed and delay has fuelled will eat away at our country for a generation.

Lately, with public distrust in facts, threats to politicians such as the neo-Nazi plot to kill Rosie Cooper or soldiers using Jeremy Corbyn’s face for target practice, I’ve felt for the first time in my life that Britain is ripe for a charismatic extra-parliamentary leader with glib answers.

Now there is only one thing we agree on: the BritainThinks research showed eight out of ten of us just want the country to reunite. But to do so we must go through one last, terrible democratic ring of fire.

[Digby]

Tldr

Though what's meant by remain ultras/extremes? If that just means people who want to stay on existing terms then that's a ridiculous label, if it refers to those who want significantly further integration, to commit to an EU army, to join the €, then fair enough that's an extreme position

[Mellsblue]

Tldr

Though what's meant by remain ultras/extremes? If that just means people who want to stay on existing terms then that's a ridiculous label, if it refers to those who want significantly further integration, to commit to an EU army, to join the €, then fair enough that's an extreme position

Read it and you’ll find out.

[Stom]

Tldr

Though what's meant by remain ultras/extremes? If that just means people who want to stay on existing terms then that's a ridiculous label, if it refers to those who want significantly further integration, to commit to an EU army, to join the €, then fair enough that's an extreme position

Read it and you’ll find out.

Yeah, I disagree it's extreme to want to stay... I'd say it's more extreme to want to leave in any way... Because extremity is not based on rationality but on extreme feelings and emotions, and leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality.

[Mikey Brown]

The extremes are as bad as eachother. Classic. Not much need to read any further than that.

[Galfon]

The EU may just decide to apply a bit of decisiveness to the proceedings and force May's hand.Tempus fugit - it's not just a UK matter.

[Mellsblue]

Tldr

Though what's meant by remain ultras/extremes? If that just means people who want to stay on existing terms then that's a ridiculous label, if it refers to those who want significantly further integration, to commit to an EU army, to join the €, then fair enough that's an extreme position

Read it and you’ll find out.

Yeah, I disagree it's extreme to want to stay... I'd say it's more extreme to want to leave in any way... Because extremity is not based on rationality but on extreme feelings and emotions, and leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality.

You don’t think ‘leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality‘ is an exteme viewpoint?!?!?

[Mellsblue]

The extremes are as bad as eachother. Classic. Not much need to read any further than that.

You pretty much prove her point.

[Stom]

Read it and you’ll find out.

Yeah, I disagree it's extreme to want to stay... I'd say it's more extreme to want to leave in any way... Because extremity is not based on rationality but on extreme feelings and emotions, and leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality.

You don’t think ‘leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality‘ is an exteme viewpoint?!?!?

Why would I? The campaign was run on emotions...

[Mellsblue]

Yeah, I disagree it's extreme to want to stay... I'd say it's more extreme to want to leave in any way... Because extremity is not based on rationality but on extreme feelings and emotions, and leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality.

You don’t think ‘leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality‘ is an exteme viewpoint?!?!?

Why would I? The campaign was run on emotions...

So what you meant was the ‘the campaign to leave the EU had no basis in reality or rationality’?? I’d agree to a certain extent and it’s true of both sides.
There is plenty of reality and rationale to/for leaving the EU. I’d argue not as much as staying but there’s still plenty.

[Mikey Brown]

The extremes are as bad as eachother. Classic. Not much need to read any further than that.

You pretty much prove her point.

No.

[Stom]

You don’t think ‘leaving the EU has no basis in reality or rationality‘ is an exteme viewpoint?!?!?

Why would I? The campaign was run on emotions...

So what you meant was the ‘the campaign to leave the EU had no basis in reality or rationality’?? I’d agree to a certain extent and it’s true of both sides.
There is plenty of reality and rationale to/for leaving the EU. I’d argue not as much as staying but there’s still plenty.

Really? What? Honestly, as I just cannot see a single reason...unless you stand to profit from it, that is

[Mellsblue]

Why would I? The campaign was run on emotions...

So what you meant was the ‘the campaign to leave the EU had no basis in reality or rationality’?? I’d agree to a certain extent and it’s true of both sides.
There is plenty of reality and rationale to/for leaving the EU. I’d argue not as much as staying but there’s still plenty.

Really? What? Honestly, as I just cannot see a single reason...unless you stand to profit from it, that is

There are numerous reasons. That you can’t even contemplate there are good reasons is, well, extreme. Just as anyone who thinks the EU is all bad, without any good points, is extreme. However, you’ve missed the point....assuming you’ve read the article. Others haven’t, yet still tried to argue against it. The journo is saying that those MPs who refused to accept the result, didn’t even give a moments thought that the result should stand, whose every move has been to get a second ref and started campaigning to overturn the result from the following morning are Remain extremists. Not just anyone who still wishes to remain. Given that’s in and around 50% of the country, that would a silly thing to think or say.

[Stom]

So what you meant was the ‘the campaign to leave the EU had no basis in reality or rationality’?? I’d agree to a certain extent and it’s true of both sides.
There is plenty of reality and rationale to/for leaving the EU. I’d argue not as much as staying but there’s still plenty.

Really? What? Honestly, as I just cannot see a single reason...unless you stand to profit from it, that is

There are numerous reasons. That you can’t even contemplate there are good reasons is, well, extreme. Just as anyone who thinks the EU is all bad, without any good points, is extreme. However, you’ve missed the point....assuming you’ve read the article. Others haven’t, yet still tried to argue against it. The journo is saying that those MPs who refused to accept the result, didn’t even give a moments thought that the result should stand, whose every move has been to get a second ref and started campaigning to overturn the result from the following morning are Remain extremists. Not just anyone who still wishes to remain. Given that’s in and around 50% of the country, that would a silly thing to think or say.

Honestly... What good could there be? Because every minor upside has a massive downside attached.

And no, I don't see it as extreme, trying to overturn a government who thinks that referendum means you should take the UK out of the EU.

And I did read it and it was... Well

OK, its a good point that we shouldn't call it a people's vote, but I don't really agree with the article, no.

[Mellsblue]

Really? What? Honestly, as I just cannot see a single reason...unless you stand to profit from it, that is

There are numerous reasons. That you can’t even contemplate there are good reasons is, well, extreme. Just as anyone who thinks the EU is all bad, without any good points, is extreme. However, you’ve missed the point....assuming you’ve read the article. Others haven’t, yet still tried to argue against it. The journo is saying that those MPs who refused to accept the result, didn’t even give a moments thought that the result should stand, whose every move has been to get a second ref and started campaigning to overturn the result from the following morning are Remain extremists. Not just anyone who still wishes to remain. Given that’s in and around 50% of the country, that would a silly thing to think or say.

Honestly... What good could there be? Because every minor upside has a massive downside attached.

And no, I don't see it as extreme, trying to overturn a government who thinks that referendum means you should take the UK out of the EU.

And I did read it and it was... Well

OK, its a good point that we shouldn't call it a people's vote, but I don't really agree with the article, no.

Cool. At least you read it. If you think there is literally no up side to leaving then EU that’s fine I’m not going to argue with you, but I’d say it’s an extreme position to hold.

[Stom]

There are numerous reasons. That you can’t even contemplate there are good reasons is, well, extreme. Just as anyone who thinks the EU is all bad, without any good points, is extreme. However, you’ve missed the point....assuming you’ve read the article. Others haven’t, yet still tried to argue against it. The journo is saying that those MPs who refused to accept the result, didn’t even give a moments thought that the result should stand, whose every move has been to get a second ref and started campaigning to overturn the result from the following morning are Remain extremists. Not just anyone who still wishes to remain. Given that’s in and around 50% of the country, that would a silly thing to think or say.

Honestly... What good could there be? Because every minor upside has a massive downside attached.

And no, I don't see it as extreme, trying to overturn a government who thinks that referendum means you should take the UK out of the EU.

And I did read it and it was... Well

OK, its a good point that we shouldn't call it a people's vote, but I don't really agree with the article, no.

Cool. At least you read it. If you think there is literally no up side to leaving then EU that’s fine I’m not going to argue with you, but I’d say it’s an extreme position to hold.

Can you tell me one, please. Honestly

[Mellsblue]

Honestly... What good could there be? Because every minor upside has a massive downside attached.

And no, I don't see it as extreme, trying to overturn a government who thinks that referendum means you should take the UK out of the EU.

And I did read it and it was... Well

OK, its a good point that we shouldn't call it a people's vote, but I don't really agree with the article, no.

Cool. At least you read it. If you think there is literally no up side to leaving then EU that’s fine I’m not going to argue with you, but I’d say it’s an extreme position to hold.

Can you tell me one, please. Honestly

Honestly. No. You’ve read them all and disagree. Me repeating them to you won’t change your mind.

[Stom]

Cool. At least you read it. If you think there is literally no up side to leaving then EU that’s fine I’m not going to argue with you, but I’d say it’s an extreme position to hold.

Can you tell me one, please. Honestly

Honestly. No. You’ve read them all and disagree. Me repeating them to you won’t change your mind.

Then try to explain it to someone who doesn't know brexit.