RugbyRebels

skidger wrote:Bringing Phil in also would have been good.

Phil would have been better than Gary. Honest tradesmen are 10 times the pansy pricks.

Puja wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Puja wrote:Itoje's supposed to be rated very highly - it's why he was packing down at lock while playing flank in the 6N.

The biggest difference I've seen is when we toured NZ and Attwood was brought on for a back row every time Henry Thomas came off, so that he could scrum behind Thomas and Launchbiry could go on the flank. Turned a potential weakness into a strength.

Puja

I still don't get this. If Itoje was packing down at lock (which he was) then he was not playing flank, since, by definition, flankers pack down in the back row. He was also mostly operating at the front/middle of the lineout, not the tail end. So the number 6 on his back meant absolutely nothing and he played the same game that he usually does. Lawes was actually playing blindside flank, though listed and numbered as a lock - so his number was meaningless as well.
Yet is has come to pass that Itoje is now regarded as an international lock or a 6, when he has really not played for England as a flanker at all.

The thing is that there's a lot more to the role of flanker or lock than the set piece. Itoje may not have packed on the side of the scrum, but he was set the tasks of flanker in the loose, which was where he was so ineffective.

Puja

He may have been set certain tasks with the number 6 on his back, but as far as I could see he just played the same way he normally does when numbered as a lock. He is a very good lock and a good all-round forward in loose play. Giving him the number 6 made no difference to his performance or apparent role. Given the crap performance of Wyn Jones and Henderson in the first Lions game, he'll probably start in the tests as a lock (deservedly). A pity that Launchbury and Jonny Gray were left at home - the two best British/Irish locks of last season.

Spiffy wrote: A pity that Launchbury and Jonny Gray were left at home - the two best British/Irish locks of last season.

What of Jonny's brother? Certainly Richie 'you really are a marvellous guitarist' Gray provided similar pressure to Jonny, though both were behind Launchbury, but then Launch looked so dominant in his England colours, whether the cream, the bone, the white, the off-white or the ivory - the beige mayn't be relevant here!

Lawes best second row this season for me.

Johnny Gray tailed off badly last couple of months of the season and Richie is injured anyway. Would have had Launchbury over Henderson though.

jngf wrote:There's been lots of talk of how Kruis was thought by Eddie to be our best scrummaging second row - this may well be the case but I just wondered is there any way of objectively comparing scrummaging abilities of test locks?

Not unless you are propping in front of them or at their training sessions, no.

Puja wrote:
The thing is that there's a lot more to the role of flanker or lock than the set piece. Itoje may not have packed on the side of the scrum, but he was set the tasks of flanker in the loose, which was where he was so ineffective.

Puja

Was he actually performing the role of a flanker in the loose?

Peat wrote:

Puja wrote:
The thing is that there's a lot more to the role of flanker or lock than the set piece. Itoje may not have packed on the side of the scrum, but he was set the tasks of flanker in the loose, which was where he was so ineffective.

Puja

Was he actually performing the role of a flanker in the loose?

Not really, which was kind of the problem...

Puja

Peat wrote:

Puja wrote:
The thing is that there's a lot more to the role of flanker or lock than the set piece. Itoje may not have packed on the side of the scrum, but he was set the tasks of flanker in the loose, which was where he was so ineffective.

Puja

Was he actually performing the role of a flanker in the loose?

If Itoje really was a natural flanker I don't see the motivation for him to have played second row at age group and club level.Two things he lacks to make it as a test flanker imo are sufficient mobility to play a wide game in the loose and to be honest I don't think he has the pace to play a roving role out wide either at test level. The one thing he does have is good fetching skills. He can become a world class second row or a less than convincing back row, hope he sticks to the former tbh.

I know it was only one game I did the ruck marks for, but Itoje was hugely active in the breakdown. Lawes, not so much.

He was just an injury cover experiment. We should be fine on the flank without needing to play him there.

There seems to be huge amounts of genuinely exciting talent coming through in the backrow for England, so hopefully Itoje will be able to concentrate fully on becoming the best second row in the world.

Timbo wrote:There seems to be huge amounts of genuinely exciting talent coming through in the backrow for England, so hopefully Itoje will be able to concentrate fully on becoming the best second row in the world.

Certainly at 7 and 8, there seems to be good talent

6 is less clear in my opinion. It could be that Underhill ends up there in my opinion, otherwise I like the look of:

- Nott (though he's been playing at lock)
- Ellis
- Clifford, could end up there, but equally at 7 or 8 and not sure Eddie sees him as a 6
- Chisholm, who impresses more every time I see him
- Sam Jones, such a shame he got injured

Who am I missing?

Not missing anyone per se, but depending on the make up of the rest of the pack you could potentially see Mercer at 6 or one of the Currys. That Earle (Ben?) looks very good for the U20's too, plays across the backrow. Long way to go with all these blokes, but got to think we're doing something seriously wrong if 1 or 2 (at least) don't come through as good internationals in the near-ish future.

It's not unknown for locks to be be very busy at the breakdown and take on the brunt of the clearing to allow back rows to be ball carriers though, so Itoje hitting a lot of rucks doesn't necessarily mean he was being tasked with back row stuff either. I wasn't watching the games incredibly closely but I do think its questionable as to whether Itoje was playing back row in any shape, way or form. I remember seeing three high quality locks all playing their natural game and getting away with it due to natural athleticism and inclination for the breakdown.

Also, most athletic locks under 6'7"/flankers over 6'5" spend time in both positions as young players. Positional confusion is irrelevant compared to how they play the position now which gives a pretty strong answer in Itoje's case anyway.

Perhaps but you'd not expect a lock or backrow to only just be ahead of the tight head and behind everyone else in numbers of rucks and behind everyone in effectiveness.

Peat wrote:It's not unknown for locks to be be very busy at the breakdown and take on the brunt of the clearing to allow back rows to be ball carriers though, so Itoje hitting a lot of rucks doesn't necessarily mean he was being tasked with back row stuff either. I wasn't watching the games incredibly closely but I do think its questionable as to whether Itoje was playing back row in any shape, way or form. I remember seeing three high quality locks all playing their natural game and getting away with it due to natural athleticism and inclination for the breakdown.

Also, most athletic locks under 6'7"/flankers over 6'5" spend time in both positions as young players. Positional confusion is irrelevant compared to how they play the position now which gives a pretty strong answer in Itoje's case anyway.

That's kind of making my long-standing point (that he's not a flanker) for me. Even when wearing 6 and when Eddie's confirmed that he's picked him to play flanker, he still looks like a very mobile lock, not a back row.

Puja

As Itoje basically played lock why judge him as a flanker?

If we want to judge him as a flanker he should ideally lose some weight and get some games there

Aye. That was just Eddie being stubborn because he got it wrong.

Digby wrote:As Itoje basically played lock why judge him as a flanker?

If we want to judge him as a flanker he should ideally lose some weight and get some games there

"Basically played lock"?! He was selected as a flanker! We should judge him as a flanker because he was picked there. The fact that his play didn't look like he was playing flanker should increase the judging, not reduce it!

As I recall, Courtney Lawes wasn't given a free pass when he "basically played lock" a few years back under Burt, nor was Manu when he "basically played centre".

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:As Itoje basically played lock why judge him as a flanker?

If we want to judge him as a flanker he should ideally lose some weight and get some games there

"Basically played lock"?! He was selected as a flanker! We should judge him as a flanker because he was picked there. The fact that his play didn't look like he was playing flanker should increase the judging, not reduce it!

As I recall, Courtney Lawes wasn't given a free pass when he "basically played lock" a few years back under Burt, nor was Manu when he "basically played centre".

Puja

Ignoring the number on his back he was selected to scrummage in the second row and play like a second row. Why would you bother to judge him otherwise?

I don't see how it's a free pass. If anything it's a bit of a cop-out suggesting he was only crap because he had a 6 on his back. I think he just wasn't that great in general.

I think there's a danger that Itoje believed all the hype around him when he first broke onto the international scene, and thinks he's the real deal. If he wasn't so hyped up by everyone he would continue really working on his game and improving, but all he seems to have done is stagnate since his first few caps. The main thing he seems to have worked on is how loudly he screams everytime a penalty is won. This is in stark contrast to Lawes, who seemed to react to Kruis and Itoje taking the second row over really well, and improving the weaker areas of his game and is now playing his best ever rugby. I think Itoje sitting out a few internationals with Kruis, Launch and Lawes taking control might be the best thing long term.

Adam_P wrote:I think there's a danger that Itoje believed all the hype around him when he first broke onto the international scene, and thinks he's the real deal. If he wasn't so hyped up by everyone he would continue really working on his game and improving, but all he seems to have done is stagnate since his first few caps. The main thing he seems to have worked on is how loudly he screams everytime a penalty is won. This is in stark contrast to Lawes, who seemed to react to Kruis and Itoje taking the second row over really well, and improving the weaker areas of his game and is now playing his best ever rugby. I think Itoje sitting out a few internationals with Kruis, Launch and Lawes taking control might be the best thing long term.

Adam_P wrote:I think there's a danger that Itoje believed all the hype around him when he first broke onto the international scene, and thinks he's the real deal. If he wasn't so hyped up by everyone he would continue really working on his game and improving, but all he seems to have done is stagnate since his first few caps. The main thing he seems to have worked on is how loudly he screams everytime a penalty is won. This is in stark contrast to Lawes, who seemed to react to Kruis and Itoje taking the second row over really well, and improving the weaker areas of his game and is now playing his best ever rugby. I think Itoje sitting out a few internationals with Kruis, Launch and Lawes taking control might be the best thing long term.

You have been paying to much attention to what rival fans have been saying. He is a 22 year old second row. If shouting at penalties is the worst they can come up with he is doing some thing right. Lawes is a mature international now and is performing to his potential after slipping for a while albeit with a string of injuries.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:As Itoje basically played lock why judge him as a flanker?

If we want to judge him as a flanker he should ideally lose some weight and get some games there

"Basically played lock"?! He was selected as a flanker! We should judge him as a flanker because he was picked there. The fact that his play didn't look like he was playing flanker should increase the judging, not reduce it!

As I recall, Courtney Lawes wasn't given a free pass when he "basically played lock" a few years back under Burt, nor was Manu when he "basically played centre".

Puja

Ignoring the number on his back he was selected to scrummage in the second row and play like a second row. Why would you bother to judge him otherwise?

According to Eddie, he was selected to play like a back row and only scrummaged in the second row because he was stronger there than Lawes. So if he played like a second row, that was an inditement of his attempt to play back row.

If Eddie is lying (not impossible) and he was not selected to play back row, then that means Lawes was selected above him at 6, a player whose international back row career has been an unmitigated failure. Either way, I'm not seeing a compelling argument for him at 6.

Puja