RugbyRebels

Jesus Christ, should not have been that close. Launch, Robson, and Cips were outstanding.

Fun game.

Arse

Great game for the neutral that was, especially once Bath woke up

If Cipriani could tackle...or ruck...or do anything physically confrontational at all...

Timbo wrote:If Cipriani could tackle...or ruck...or do anything physically confrontational at all...

Thought he was pretty physical tonight - rucked Ewels off a ball, held the ball up over the line, and generally flung himself about and made tackles, especially when Preistland targeted him. He missed a bad one, but I'm letting him off that.

Cips problem is Ford has many times the number of caps and has played well, so why bother picking Cips. But he's a damn fine player, still the best creator at 10 for me

I R Geech wrote:

Timbo wrote:If Cipriani could tackle...or ruck...or do anything physically confrontational at all...

Thought he was pretty physical tonight - rucked Ewels off a ball, held the ball up over the line, and generally flung himself about and made tackles, especially when Preistland targeted him. He missed a bad one, but I'm letting him off that.

That’s not what I saw tonight. And that ‘bad one’ was bloomin awful.

Cips defence was no worse than leRoux's. Its what you get with the ball that matters, and they were both very good in that regard.
Launchbury was terrific and Robson again impressed. He really is a cut above all the other Prem SH's currently.
Overall Wasps played some great stuff. They are wonderful entertainers.
Bath did pretty well to get something out of the game, Their front row were first class, as were Mercer and Watson.

How is Cips running these days? That was what used to give him the real x factor? I do think the whole 'weakness' in defence is a bit of a cliche tbh- imo he's much more physical than he used to be, even if its not that effective; he's never going to be a great defensive 10, but then again neither is Ford, for a different reason. I don't think his distribution is as good as Ford's though- he tends to run a little too laterally prior to passing from time to time; I don't think his kicking game is as good as Ford's either. His time looks to have passed, rightly or wrongly.

Banquo wrote:How is Cips running these days? That was what used to give him the real x factor? I do think the whole 'weakness' in defence is a bit of a cliche tbh- imo he's much more physical than he used to be, even if its not that effective; he's never going to be a great defensive 10, but then again neither is Ford, for a different reason. I don't think his distribution is as good as Ford's though- he tends to run a little too laterally prior to passing from time to time; I don't think his kicking game is as good as Ford's either. His time looks to have passed, rightly or wrongly.

Can't disagree with your assessment. I still think Cips has the best hands of them all. He just has instinctive timing and very fast hands. He is also more athletic than Ford or Farrell, enabling him to catch bad passes that the others would drop. If we had a couple of top quality international SHs thst would matter very little, I accept, but with Youngs, in particular, throwing several horror loops a game it could be significant. Eddie obviously does not want Cips so it is pointless to advocate him further. Unfortunately, the same logic could mean Farrell at 10 shortly, I'd suggest, if anyone makes a better case for the 12 shirt.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:How is Cips running these days? That was what used to give him the real x factor? I do think the whole 'weakness' in defence is a bit of a cliche tbh- imo he's much more physical than he used to be, even if its not that effective; he's never going to be a great defensive 10, but then again neither is Ford, for a different reason. I don't think his distribution is as good as Ford's though- he tends to run a little too laterally prior to passing from time to time; I don't think his kicking game is as good as Ford's either. His time looks to have passed, rightly or wrongly.

Can't disagree with your assessment. I still think Cips has the best hands of them all. He just has instinctive timing and very fast hands. He is also more athletic than Ford or Farrell, enabling him to catch bad passes that the others would drop. If we had a couple of top quality international SHs thst would matter very little, I accept, but with Youngs, in particular, throwing several horror loops a game it could be significant. Eddie obviously does not want Cips so it is pointless to advocate him further. Unfortunately, the same logic could mean Farrell at 10 shortly, I'd suggest, if anyone makes a better case for the 12 shirt.

I slightly disagree on the hands front- Cips and Ford are way ahead of Faz, but as a centre I'd think running off Ford's passing would be easier/more sympathetic- Cips tends to run towards his inside centre (say), clearing his hip, but making timing harder I'd say.

I'm so frustrated at Cips career, and the defining moment of the leg break; I thought he was going to become great. Mind, I don't think he would have done, notwithstanding- not sure the mental side would have ever been there.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:How is Cips running these days? That was what used to give him the real x factor? I do think the whole 'weakness' in defence is a bit of a cliche tbh- imo he's much more physical than he used to be, even if its not that effective; he's never going to be a great defensive 10, but then again neither is Ford, for a different reason. I don't think his distribution is as good as Ford's though- he tends to run a little too laterally prior to passing from time to time; I don't think his kicking game is as good as Ford's either. His time looks to have passed, rightly or wrongly.

Can't disagree with your assessment. I still think Cips has the best hands of them all. He just has instinctive timing and very fast hands. He is also more athletic than Ford or Farrell, enabling him to catch bad passes that the others would drop. If we had a couple of top quality international SHs thst would matter very little, I accept, but with Youngs, in particular, throwing several horror loops a game it could be significant. Eddie obviously does not want Cips so it is pointless to advocate him further. Unfortunately, the same logic could mean Farrell at 10 shortly, I'd suggest, if anyone makes a better case for the 12 shirt.

I slightly disagree on the hands front- Cips and Ford are way ahead of Faz, but as a centre I'd think running off Ford's passing would be easier/more sympathetic- Cips tends to run towards his inside centre (say), clearing his hip, but making timing harder I'd say.

I'm so frustrated at Cips career, and the defining moment of the leg break; I thought he was going to become great. Mind, I don't think he would have done, notwithstanding- not sure the mental side would have ever been there.

I tend to think Ford better manages phase to phase, Cips takes more of a risk that a phase has a more negative outcome but also looks to engage a defence more to also increase the chance of a linebreak. I might at this point prefer Ford's method myself, but I do wonder given England don't run that much phase play if Cips isn't a better fit, though given we've had Ford in the side for a few years now I can't see a reason to bin that experience

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Can't disagree with your assessment. I still think Cips has the best hands of them all. He just has instinctive timing and very fast hands. He is also more athletic than Ford or Farrell, enabling him to catch bad passes that the others would drop. If we had a couple of top quality international SHs thst would matter very little, I accept, but with Youngs, in particular, throwing several horror loops a game it could be significant. Eddie obviously does not want Cips so it is pointless to advocate him further. Unfortunately, the same logic could mean Farrell at 10 shortly, I'd suggest, if anyone makes a better case for the 12 shirt.

I slightly disagree on the hands front- Cips and Ford are way ahead of Faz, but as a centre I'd think running off Ford's passing would be easier/more sympathetic- Cips tends to run towards his inside centre (say), clearing his hip, but making timing harder I'd say.

I'm so frustrated at Cips career, and the defining moment of the leg break; I thought he was going to become great. Mind, I don't think he would have done, notwithstanding- not sure the mental side would have ever been there.

I tend to think Ford better manages phase to phase, Cips takes more of a risk that a phase has a more negative outcome but also looks to engage a defence more to also increase the chance of a linebreak. I might at this point prefer Ford's method myself, but I do wonder given England don't run that much phase play if Cips isn't a better fit, though given we've had Ford in the side for a few years now I can't see a reason to bin that experience

Interesting point on ‘engaging defence more’- Cips plays marginally flatter, but tends to run sideways when passing which is happy days for many defences. Think Ford needs to get back playing flatter tho

To play flat, you need a mobile backrowers that can get in and win collisions behind the last ruck, and/or a battering ram centre* to get you out of jail.

At Bath he had the backrowers, but not the centre, at Leicester he's got the centre (sometimes), but not the backrowers.

Hopefully Toomua and Tuilagi can stay fit, and allow Ford the option of playing flatter and challenging the defence himself, and refind that form. Maybe if Leicester can find some flankers from somewhere (or use Evans).



* Or a gainline breaker anyway, as Eastmond allowed him that confidence... erm...

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: I slightly disagree on the hands front- Cips and Ford are way ahead of Faz, but as a centre I'd think running off Ford's passing would be easier/more sympathetic- Cips tends to run towards his inside centre (say), clearing his hip, but making timing harder I'd say.

I'm so frustrated at Cips career, and the defining moment of the leg break; I thought he was going to become great. Mind, I don't think he would have done, notwithstanding- not sure the mental side would have ever been there.

I tend to think Ford better manages phase to phase, Cips takes more of a risk that a phase has a more negative outcome but also looks to engage a defence more to also increase the chance of a linebreak. I might at this point prefer Ford's method myself, but I do wonder given England don't run that much phase play if Cips isn't a better fit, though given we've had Ford in the side for a few years now I can't see a reason to bin that experience

Interesting point on ‘engaging defence more’- Cips plays marginally flatter, but tends to run sideways when passing which is happy days for many defences. Think Ford needs to get back playing flatter tho

I don't mid Cips going sideways when he creates the chances he does, but if you go sideways and create nothing then you should be rightly flogged. BOD spent a lot of time running sideways too, but it's okay taking other peoples' space providing you produce for so intruding

Which Tyler wrote:To play flat, you need a mobile backrowers that can get in and win collisions behind the last ruck, and/or a battering ram centre* to get you out of jail.

At Bath he had the backrowers, but not the centre, at Leicester he's got the centre (sometimes), but not the backrowers.

Hopefully Toomua and Tuilagi can stay fit, and allow Ford the option of playing flatter and challenging the defence himself, and refind that form. Maybe if Leicester can find some flankers from somewhere (or use Evans).



* Or a gainline breaker anyway, as Eastmond allowed him that confidence... erm...

I was really referring to England, but your points are valid.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
I tend to think Ford better manages phase to phase, Cips takes more of a risk that a phase has a more negative outcome but also looks to engage a defence more to also increase the chance of a linebreak. I might at this point prefer Ford's method myself, but I do wonder given England don't run that much phase play if Cips isn't a better fit, though given we've had Ford in the side for a few years now I can't see a reason to bin that experience

Interesting point on ‘engaging defence more’- Cips plays marginally flatter, but tends to run sideways when passing which is happy days for many defences. Think Ford needs to get back playing flatter tho

I don't mid Cips going sideways when he creates the chances he does, but if you go sideways and create nothing then you should be rightly flogged. BOD spent a lot of time running sideways too, but it's okay taking other peoples' space providing you produce for so intruding

Agreed, my concern would be that intl defences are that much better; BOD was in a different class as a runner.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: Interesting point on ‘engaging defence more’- Cips plays marginally flatter, but tends to run sideways when passing which is happy days for many defences. Think Ford needs to get back playing flatter tho

I don't mid Cips going sideways when he creates the chances he does, but if you go sideways and create nothing then you should be rightly flogged. BOD spent a lot of time running sideways too, but it's okay taking other peoples' space providing you produce for so intruding

Agreed, my concern would be that intl defences are that much better; BOD was in a different class as a runner.

Indeed we don't know if Cips could run that way to good effect at test level, though his cameos have looked impressive enough. And he doesn't always shine Vs a blitz, and his kicking from hand is... variable