England U20 EPS Squad 2017/18

[twitchy]

Seems like the welsh are making their move. But in the current climate maybe the england senior squad doesn't seem that far off.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugb ... ssion=true

[TheNomad]

Moriarty all over again - ultimately Moriarty probably could have played for England if he'd wanted (I think he'd get into our side, or certainly be there or there abouts), but he went to Wales because that's who wanted to play for. Totally fair enough.

Same situation really. If he feels Welsh and wants to represent them, then that's always likely to be the case and he should go for it.

If he's unsure or if he would prefer to play for England, he should stick with the U20s for now. Pretty straight forward really

[Mellsblue]

It goes both ways. The Times report there are currently 19 age grade players at Hartpury College.
They also say that Jones has his eye on Vellacot for the third scrumhalf role. Supposedly, there is a big battle behind the scenes between Eng and Scot.

[TheNomad]

It goes both ways. The Times report there are currently 19 age grade players at Hartpury College.

What do you mean by this? i.e. they could go to either Wales or England?

[Mellsblue]

It goes both ways. The Times report there are currently 19 WELSH age grade players at Hartpury College.

What do you mean by this? i.e. they could go to either Wales or England?

That every country is trying to poach good age grade players.
Edit - just realised I left out a vital word!!! See above.

[Which Tyler]

Given that Hartbury is practically on the Welsh border, it's hardly surprising that there are Welsh people there. It holds approximately zero viability that it's part of any RFU poaching campaign.

It's just a university with a good reputation for sports, specifically rugby. I suspect we can also find Welsh people at Loughborough, or English people at St Andrews and they wouldn't be about poaching either.

In Moore's case, he's been England from the age on 2 - so calling him English is not a poach. His father was a Welsh international - so calling him Welsh is not a poach.

[Puja]

Seems like the welsh are making their move. But in the current climate maybe the england senior squad doesn't seem that far off.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugb ... ssion=true

Seems bizarre - has he even played first team rugby for Sale yet?

Puja

[fivepointer]

Moore hasnt been named in the Welsh 6N squad.

It would be very early for him. He has only a handful of appearances for Sale. Seems like he will play for the u20s and consider his options after that.

[Which Tyler]

Moore hasnt been named in the Welsh 6N squad.

It would be very early for him. He has only a handful of appearances for Sale. Seems like he will play for the u20s and consider his options after that.

Agreed, he turned them down at U18 when it wouldn't have bound him, why would go and bind himself to Wales at U20 level when he doesn't have to?

If they were talking about the senior squad, then that's a different matter... but they're not

[TheNomad]

I think the general point is - nations shouldn't be strategically poaching these players.

If he's good enough, then by all means try and call him up - in this instance, if the above rumours are true, it's a tough sell to suggest he's being called up on merit, so that would be a specific effort by the Welsh to get him tied down, which isn't right.

Not saying it's not common, but it's not good behaviour...if true

[Mellsblue]

Given that Hartbury is practically on the Welsh border, it's hardly surprising that there are Welsh people there. It holds approximately zero viability that it's part of any RFU poaching campaign.

It's just a university with a good reputation for sports, specifically rugby. I suspect we can also find Welsh people at Loughborough, or English people at St Andrews and they wouldn't be about poaching either.

I’m aware of all this. I know - not very well - someone who has been through Hartpury.
My point is that it’s all very fluid and all countries are actively looking at eligible age grade players - the Hartpury fact just happened to be in front of my whilst typing. It was just an illustrative example.
The SRU and the WRU have scouts actively working in England and to think the RFU doesn’t is naive.

[Timbo]

Moore hasnt been named in the Welsh 6N squad.

It would be very early for him. He has only a handful of appearances for Sale. Seems like he will play for the u20s and consider his options after that.

Agreed, he turned them down at U18 when it wouldn't have bound him, why would go and bind himself to Wales at U20 level when he doesn't have to?

If they were talking about the senior squad, then that's a different matter... but they're not

I’ve read online in a number of places that he turned down a full Wales squad call up in the Autumn.

[Puja]

The RFU have scouts in Wales and Scotland? Really?!

Why would they? I can understand the opposite - the Welsh and Scots populations are small and it's common for people to migrate to England for work as the bigger economy, so there's likely to be people who qualify through parents/grandparents. And England's player pool is so big that there's likely to be those who won't play for their mother country, but could be persuaded to swap to one they feel less for.

However none of those apply in reverse? Why would we have scouts in Wales when a) there's not likely to be many players wth English ancestry, b) if they do, they're more likely to be picked up by Wales anyway, as they've got a smaller pool to choose from and they're more likely to feel for Wales as their home. Wouldn't we get better utility out of having an extra scout in London or Birmingham instead?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The RFU have scouts in Wales and Scotland? Really?!

Why would they? I can understand the opposite - the Welsh and Scots populations are small and it's common for people to migrate to England for work as the bigger economy, so there's likely to be people who qualify through parents/grandparents. And England's player pool is so big that there's likely to be those who won't play for their mother country, but could be persuaded to swap to one they feel less for.

However none of those apply in reverse? Why would we have scouts in Wales when a) there's not likely to be many players wth English ancestry, b) if they do, they're more likely to be picked up by Wales anyway, as they've got a smaller pool to choose from and they're more likely to feel for Wales as their home. Wouldn't we get better utility out of having an extra scout in London or Birmingham instead?

Puja

Who says we don’t have both. England have feelers out all over the place.

[Puja]

The RFU have scouts in Wales and Scotland? Really?!

Why would they? I can understand the opposite - the Welsh and Scots populations are small and it's common for people to migrate to England for work as the bigger economy, so there's likely to be people who qualify through parents/grandparents. And England's player pool is so big that there's likely to be those who won't play for their mother country, but could be persuaded to swap to one they feel less for.

However none of those apply in reverse? Why would we have scouts in Wales when a) there's not likely to be many players wth English ancestry, b) if they do, they're more likely to be picked up by Wales anyway, as they've got a smaller pool to choose from and they're more likely to feel for Wales as their home. Wouldn't we get better utility out of having an extra scout in London or Birmingham instead?

Puja

Who says we don’t have both. England have feelers out all over the place.

But why? Who would we ever get who's been schooled and in academies and age grade in Wales or Scotland? We never pick up anyone who's lived in Llanelli all their life, but who has an English grandparent; it just doesn't happen.

Puja

[Banquo]

The RFU have scouts in Wales and Scotland? Really?!

Why would they? I can understand the opposite - the Welsh and Scots populations are small and it's common for people to migrate to England for work as the bigger economy, so there's likely to be people who qualify through parents/grandparents. And England's player pool is so big that there's likely to be those who won't play for their mother country, but could be persuaded to swap to one they feel less for.

However none of those apply in reverse? Why would we have scouts in Wales when a) there's not likely to be many players wth English ancestry, b) if they do, they're more likely to be picked up by Wales anyway, as they've got a smaller pool to choose from and they're more likely to feel for Wales as their home. Wouldn't we get better utility out of having an extra scout in London or Birmingham instead?

Puja

Who says we don’t have both. England have feelers out all over the place.

But why? Who would we ever get who's been schooled and in academies and age grade in Wales or Scotland? We never pick up anyone who's lived in Llanelli all their life, but who has an English grandparent; it just doesn't happen.

Puja

Maybe because we don't have feelers out all over the place; mind, didn't the Vunipola's sort of come that route? and of course, Dewi Morris.

[Puja]

The Vunipolas moved with their family to Gloucester (for the mother's work if memory serves (which it rarely does)) and then got picked up a couple of years later by Millfield School scouts after going to school in Bristol. So we didn't actually pick them up from Wales, but only once they'd moved to England.

Puja

[Banquo]

The Vunipolas moved with their family to Gloucester (for the mother's work if memory serves (which it rarely does)) and then got picked up a couple of years later by Millfield School scouts after going to school in Bristol. So we didn't actually pick them up from Wales, but only once they'd moved to England.

Puja

Mako had spent a deal of his early life in Wales though, but I take your point. Billy went to Harrow, somewhat surprisingly

[Which Tyler]

But why? Who would we ever get who's been schooled and in academies and age grade in Wales or Scotland? We never pick up anyone who's lived in Llanelli all their life, but who has an English grandparent; it just doesn't happen.

Whilst I agree with your point, but... Zach Mercer (Scottish from the ages of 7-18). Of course, that has nothing at all to do with poaching by the RFU; but him moving to Bath of his own accord.

I still don't see how selecting someone born in Wales to Welsh parents can be seen as a poach by Wales though - that still needs some explaining for me.

[Raggs]

Since the conversation is on poaching, the last name in the Scotland squad image is rather out of place alphabetically. Suspicions that it was Vellacott and only replaced last minute.

[Mellsblue]

The RFU have scouts in Wales and Scotland? Really?!

Why would they? I can understand the opposite - the Welsh and Scots populations are small and it's common for people to migrate to England for work as the bigger economy, so there's likely to be people who qualify through parents/grandparents. And England's player pool is so big that there's likely to be those who won't play for their mother country, but could be persuaded to swap to one they feel less for.

However none of those apply in reverse? Why would we have scouts in Wales when a) there's not likely to be many players wth English ancestry, b) if they do, they're more likely to be picked up by Wales anyway, as they've got a smaller pool to choose from and they're more likely to feel for Wales as their home. Wouldn't we get better utility out of having an extra scout in London or Birmingham instead?

Puja

Who says we don’t have both. England have feelers out all over the place.

But why? Who would we ever get who's been schooled and in academies and age grade in Wales or Scotland? We never pick up anyone who's lived in Llanelli all their life, but who has an English grandparent; it just doesn't happen.

Puja

Why wouldn’t we pick them up - Brian Redpath is open about the fact he’s more than happy for his son to play for England because that’s where the age group infrastructure and pro money is.
George North is half English and was born in Kings Lynn. My brother-in-law is English but grew up in Wales - people do move in that direction. Granted there’s not many but it’s little money and hassle for the RFU to have scouts nipping over the borders, north and west, to watch school boy players. Top public schools do it why would the cash rich RFU not?

[Which Tyler]

Granted there’s not many but it’s little money and hassle for the RFU to have scouts nipping over the borders, north and west, to watch school boy players. Top public schools do it why would the cash rich RFU not?

Because they don't need to.
Schools do it, clubs do it, the Welsh and Scottish systems are generally tighter about not letting talent fall through the gaps, because they can't afford to miss someone. The players themselves do it, given that they know there's more cash, and more places available in the English system.
Again, we're talking here about a player who has played international age-grade rugby; which puts him right in the shop window. We're also talking about a player born in Wales to Welsh parents - which is not a poach under any proposal that I've ever seen.

[Mellsblue]

Granted there’s not many but it’s little money and hassle for the RFU to have scouts nipping over the borders, north and west, to watch school boy players. Top public schools do it why would the cash rich RFU not?

Because they don't need to.
Schools do it, clubs do it, the Welsh and Scottish systems are generally tighter about not letting talent fall through the gaps, because they can't afford to miss someone. The players themselves do it, given that they know there's more cash, and more places available in the English system.
Again, we're talking here about a player who has played international age-grade rugby; which puts him right in the shop window. We're also talking about a player born in Wales to Welsh parents - which is not a poach under any proposal that I've ever seen.

I’m not talking about that player. I’m talking in general. This line of discussion had moved on from one particular player.
The RFU do it in N Yorks. They make sure players don’t fall through/miss the club academy system’s grasp and I’d therefore assume other parts of the country where the club game is underrepresented.
The RFU will be talking to talented, EQP age group player outside of England and building relationships with them.
Do you really think the RFU trust the clubs to pick up every eligible player of interest. They don’t even trust them to fill their teams with EQP without bribing them and they don’t trust them to fund their academies properly without central funding.

[Banquo]

Since the conversation is on poaching, the last name in the Scotland squad image is rather out of place alphabetically. Suspicions that it was Vellacott and only replaced last minute.

Tho Fowles is an earlier 'poach'

[Puja]

Who says we don’t have both. England have feelers out all over the place.

But why? Who would we ever get who's been schooled and in academies and age grade in Wales or Scotland? We never pick up anyone who's lived in Llanelli all their life, but who has an English grandparent; it just doesn't happen.

Puja

Why wouldn’t we pick them up - Brian Redpath is open about the fact he’s more than happy for his son to play for England because that’s where the age group infrastructure and pro money is.
George North is half English and was born in Kings Lynn. My brother-in-law is English but grew up in Wales - people do move in that direction. Granted there’s not many but it’s little money and hassle for the RFU to have scouts nipping over the borders, north and west, to watch school boy players. Top public schools do it why would the cash rich RFU not?

Because the cash rich RFU has more than enough people to look through in England and it would be spending money for very little return? As you said, schools go poaching anyway, so anyone who fancies playing in England can - why bother going hunting when our schools will bring in players anyway?

As for older players, we can't pick anyone playing outside of England anyway, so there's no point in looking for Chris Harrises and Tomas Francises even if we wanted them.

I get your point to Which of not trusting schools and clubs to be 100%, but even with them being rich, they've got a limit. Why spend money on placing someone in another country where there's not many EQP and those that are aren't likely to want to come, when you could use that money to place an extra person in Manchester and stand 10x more chance of finding someone than by stranding them in Scotland. Hell, we don't have a development officer in NZ, which I'd've thought would be a much more prolific hunting ground, so why would we have one in Wales?

Puja