RugbyRebels

Digby wrote:Andy Robinson would have been able to see George Smith was worth picking at 7

Easy to say now. Same will probably be said of Isiekwe and Tom Curry etc, but the fact is very few coaches would have picked them when Eddie did. Genge and Isiekwe had 2 And 1 Prem start respectively when first picked for a senior England squad. Giteau had never played a super rugby game when Jones gave him his first test cap.

Timbo wrote:

Digby wrote:Andy Robinson would have been able to see George Smith was worth picking at 7

Easy to say now. Same will probably be said of Isiekwe and Tom Curry etc, but the fact is very few coaches would have picked them when Eddie did. Genge and Isiekwe had 2 And 1 Prem start respectively when first picked for a senior England squad. Giteau had never played a super rugby game when Jones gave him his first test cap.

Smith was one of the standout players of his generation (and anyway wasn't it Macqueen who picked him at test level?). There are players it's very much the case someone spots something in them others haven't, but Smith like Itoje was a clear and obvious pick

Digby wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Digby wrote:Andy Robinson would have been able to see George Smith was worth picking at 7

Easy to say now. Same will probably be said of Isiekwe and Tom Curry etc, but the fact is very few coaches would have picked them when Eddie did. Genge and Isiekwe had 2 And 1 Prem start respectively when first picked for a senior England squad. Giteau had never played a super rugby game when Jones gave him his first test cap.

Smith was one of the standout players of his generation (and anyway wasn't it Macqueen who picked him at test level?). There are players it's very much the case someone spots something in them others haven't, but Smith like Itoje was a clear and obvious pick

Yes, Eddie signed him up to his first pro contract for the Brumbies at 18.

Aaaanywaaay, Eddie did say yesterday that he expects Robshaw and Brown to be fit, Robshaw slightly more doubtful.

Is there a feeling that Boyce will be picked over Hepburn? I’m a big Hepburn fan, I really hope he gets a crack in these first two games.

I'd be surprised if Kruis makes the 23.

Oakboy wrote:I'd be surprised if Kruis makes the 23.

Disagree again

Kruis looked really sparky against Saints I thought. Looked like he’d got his mojo back after a few weeks off.

Timbo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Timbo wrote:
Easy to say now. Same will probably be said of Isiekwe and Tom Curry etc, but the fact is very few coaches would have picked them when Eddie did. Genge and Isiekwe had 2 And 1 Prem start respectively when first picked for a senior England squad. Giteau had never played a super rugby game when Jones gave him his first test cap.

Smith was one of the standout players of his generation (and anyway wasn't it Macqueen who picked him at test level?). There are players it's very much the case someone spots something in them others haven't, but Smith like Itoje was a clear and obvious pick

Yes, Eddie signed him up to his first pro contract for the Brumbies at 18.

I know Eddie was at the Brumbies still as Rod was in charge for the Jamboree tour. And it's not that unusual to sign a standout player to a club aged 18, even Leicester can manage that (it's just what comes next that flummoxes Leicester)

With due respect to Italy, it's good that they're the first opponents as there are bound to be one or two less experienced players who play. Anyway, these players have to make their débuts some time, so no time like the present.

Wish this pretence of giving Itoje the 6 shirt could be knocked on the head. If he looks like a second row, scrums like a second row and has a very limited carrying game ( at least at test level to date) ... one might well conclude he’s a second row ...not a blindside flanker!

jngf wrote:Wish this pretence of giving Itoje the 6 shirt could be knocked on the head. If he looks like a second row, scrums like a second row and has a very limited carrying game ( at least at test level to date) ... one might well conclude he’s a second row ...not a blindside flanker!

As I've said recently, would much rather have him at 6 than Lawes at 6, any day of the week.

Needs must, i'm afraid. If Robshaw isnt fit, i'd be very surprised if Eddie fielded a rookie back row. Playing Lawes or Itoje at least gives some ballast and experience to a unit that is going to be very short of both.
Not ideal but sometimes a bodge is required when injuries really limit your options.

fivepointer wrote:Needs must, i'm afraid. If Robshaw isnt fit, i'd be very surprised if Eddie fielded a rookie back row. Playing Lawes or Itoje at least gives some ballast and experience to a unit that is going to be very short of both.
Not ideal but sometimes a bodge is required when injuries really limit your options.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Lawes and Itoje will be 4 and 19 if Robshaw is fit. But if Robshaw doesn't make it, Eddie will go for Lawtoje. Which is a shame, as it's a stop gap. Although I guess it's worth giving it gametime in case we need to use it in the WC... Would rather see an actual backrow given a shot. Someone like, say, Armand. Or Clifford (he's had terrible luck with injuries...). Someone with a little bit of flexibility who can cover across the backrow. Although, I guess, Underhill could play 6 and Simmonds 7, while Mercer can play 6 and 8, so we're kind of covered there.

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I'd be surprised if Kruis makes the 23.

Disagree again

Kruis looked really sparky against Saints I thought. Looked like he’d got his mojo back after a few weeks off.

If Kruis is picked it'll surely be more about credit in the bank and what he offers physically than one game against a pish Saints side

Digby wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I'd be surprised if Kruis makes the 23.

Disagree again

Kruis looked really sparky against Saints I thought. Looked like he’d got his mojo back after a few weeks off.

If Kruis is picked it'll surely be more about credit in the bank and what he offers physically than one game against a pish Saints side

Indeed. Plus, he's one of Borthwick's favourites. When fit and firing, he works hard, hits rucks, makes tackles around the fringes and is a superb l/o operator.

But I just don't get the impression he's anywhere near world class. Obviously Eddie doesn't think Launch is, either, which I think is insane. So hopefully Isiekwe can push on over the next 2 years so he can take over after the world cup. But if Borthwick does become the next Head Coach...

Stom wrote:But if Borthwick does become the next Head Coach...

...even if England were to lose every game going he’d be effusive about how well his side had performed, a veritable army of PR Spin doctors all rolled into one second row shaped package!:)

Digby wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I'd be surprised if Kruis makes the 23.

Disagree again

Kruis looked really sparky against Saints I thought. Looked like he’d got his mojo back after a few weeks off.

If Kruis is picked it'll surely be more about credit in the bank and what he offers physically than one game against a pish Saints side

Yeah of course. That credit in the bank means that the coaches are probably alive to signs he’s coming back into good form.

Timbo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Timbo wrote:
Disagree again

Kruis looked really sparky against Saints I thought. Looked like he’d got his mojo back after a few weeks off.

If Kruis is picked it'll surely be more about credit in the bank and what he offers physically than one game against a pish Saints side

Yeah of course. That credit in the bank means that the coaches are probably alive to signs he’s coming back into good form.

I suppose Borthwick may be an influence. Kruis is some distance behind Launchbury, Lawes and Itoje, IMO, but I admit that I always thought he was over-rated even when supposedly at his best. I just think he suffers in athletic comparison with the other three. He's a bit wooden and has periods where he disappears, especially against top opponents and when things aren't going well.

Timbo wrote:
Yeah of course. That credit in the bank means that the coaches are probably alive to signs he’s coming back into good form.

Indeed. If he hits his straps then should be right back in the mix. How our pack works, be it line out or driving maul, is much improved when he's on the money.

Dasheragain wrote:

jngf wrote:Wish this pretence of giving Itoje the 6 shirt could be knocked on the head. If he looks like a second row, scrums like a second row and has a very limited carrying game ( at least at test level to date) ... one might well conclude he’s a second row ...not a blindside flanker!

As I've said recently, would much rather have him at 6 than Lawes at 6, any day of the week.

Interested to hear your reasons. I would agree that neither is an out and out 6, but would say that Lawes has done better at 6 than Itoje. Even when Itoje wears 6 for England, he packs down in the second row and plays the same game as usual (with Lawes packing down at 6). Lawes at least has some history at 6 and is probably a better ball carrier. Overall, Lawes may be a better bet at blindside for England for the 2019 RWC than either Itoje or Robshaw (not ruling out good emerging young talents like Mercer and Willis.)
Could well understand a coach trying to get Itoje/Lawes/Launchbury all into a big, powerful and athletic pack at the same time.

Spiffy wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:

jngf wrote:Wish this pretence of giving Itoje the 6 shirt could be knocked on the head. If he looks like a second row, scrums like a second row and has a very limited carrying game ( at least at test level to date) ... one might well conclude he’s a second row ...not a blindside flanker!

As I've said recently, would much rather have him at 6 than Lawes at 6, any day of the week.

Interested to hear your reasons. I would agree that neither is an out and out 6, but would say that Lawes has done better at 6 than Itoje. Even when Itoje wears 6 for England, he packs down in the second row and plays the same game as usual (with Lawes packing down at 6). Lawes at least has some history at 6 and is probably a better ball carrier. Overall, Lawes may be a better bet at blindside for England for the 2019 RWC than either Itoje or Robshaw (not ruling out good emerging young talents like Mercer and Willis.)
Could well understand a coach trying to get Itoje/Lawes/Launchbury all into a big, powerful and athletic pack at the same time.

I’d agree that Lawes is better at 6 than Itoje.

With the injury situation, I can live with one of them doing an adequate job at 6, but I’d much rather Wilson or Armand had been in the squad. Armand has had a more eye-catching season but Wilson is always an 8/10 player - including the occasions he actually got a chance with England.

It boggles my mind that we play a lock at 6 but leave quality players who are specialist blindsides at home. Injuries are inevitable so not picking the right kind of cover is unnecessarily risky IMO.

Picking Lawes or Itoje would be a far more realistic simulation of a potential rugby world cup situation though, should we be hit by numerous injuries there.

Te'o going that extra mile to get fit...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... taly-rehab

I can see the logic behind the emergency World Cup planning - both if that is what Jones is doing and why people believe it’s why he’s doing it - but there are two things that make me think he sees it as plan B if Robshaw is crocked. The first is he’s trialled it enough times now to decide whether it’s a viable option but he’s still (potentially) picking them and the second is that he’s not tried it in any other position or unit.

Brown still out with blurred vision so they ran with May - Solomona - Watson in training.

Oakboy wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Digby wrote:
If Kruis is picked it'll surely be more about credit in the bank and what he offers physically than one game against a pish Saints side

Yeah of course. That credit in the bank means that the coaches are probably alive to signs he’s coming back into good form.

I suppose Borthwick may be an influence. Kruis is some distance behind Launchbury, Lawes and Itoje, IMO, but I admit that I always thought he was over-rated even when supposedly at his best. I just think he suffers in athletic comparison with the other three. He's a bit wooden and has periods where he disappears, especially against top opponents and when things aren't going well.

Kruis is simply better at the bits and pieces than the others. When fit and firing that is.

And maybe with a front row of Mako, George and Sinckler it's good to have that. But with Hartley and Cole... I think I'd rather Launch and Itoje.

I’ll start off by saying I’ve been a big fan of Kruis ever since he put in the best performance I’ve ever seen in a Bedford shirt against Worcester in a play-off semifinal........but I think he’s absolute quality when on form. A bit like Robshaw he has no outstanding attribute but you miss him when he’s not there - especially so with the way Eng play. I’m sure it’s no coincidence that Sarries’ and England’s poorer runs of form have coincided with Kruis’.
Having said all that, even though he looked back to his best against Saints he’s currently behind Itoje, Launch and Lawes (and possibly Isiekwe) but all being equal I’d have him in the starting XV in the summer.