Sack Eddie now: A thought experiment

[Mellsblue]

I don’t get this clear out. Who is banging on the door demanding the shirt. If he’s having a clearout then he needs to have a look at himself. Mako, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Itoje, Watson and Daly all looked good/very good/world class for the Lions. Add in Launch, Ford, Robshaw and Joseph who, to varying degrees, we know are quality international players and serial world player of the year nominee Farrell and we shouldn’t be fretting about finishing fifth in the 6N.

[16th man]

Sounds like he's going to have a bit of a clear out. Something has to happen after today and it wouldnt surprise me if a few big names get the chop, as well as changes to the coaching set up. Talk on tv commentary about bringing in an attack coach which strikes me as a sensible move.
I dont think the RFU will consider his position just yet. He really has the 3 SA tests to at least turn things around and get us back to winning ways, or at least playing like a top side.

I'd be surprised if it was the right big names though.

[Which Tyler]

It depends what his excuses are when he reports to the board, and whether they chime with what he was telling them 3 months ago.

I can still see the beating to the point of breaking being a deliberate ploy, even if it feels like clutching at straws.
If that was the case, and acknowledged as such beforehand, then there's no reason to sack him.
If it wasn't, and he was playing this 6N to win, and he hasn't learned his lessons from failure; then he has to go before it's too late for his replacement.

[16th man]

I don’t get this clear out. Who is banging on the door demanding the shirt. If he’s having a clearout then he needs to have a look at himself. Mako, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Itoje, Watson and Daly all looked good/very good/world class for the Lions. Add in Launch, Ford, Robshaw and Joseph who, to varying degrees, we know are quality international players and serial world player of the year nominee Farrell and we shouldn’t be fretting about finishing fifth in the 6N.

The problem with asking this question is, who is having a chance to? Armand got called up for the back row as Lawes was hurt, despite being part of Exeter's very effective back row for the last season and a bit. Cole has looked broken for some time, but it isn't his place that Sinckler is pushing for, it's the sub's shirt. And as for SH, if Wigglesworth is getting the call, even with Sarries travails this season, what's the point of any other English 9 not shoving off to France for a pay day?

[Mellsblue]

I don’t get this clear out. Who is banging on the door demanding the shirt. If he’s having a clearout then he needs to have a look at himself. Mako, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Itoje, Watson and Daly all looked good/very good/world class for the Lions. Add in Launch, Ford, Robshaw and Joseph who, to varying degrees, we know are quality international players and serial world player of the year nominee Farrell and we shouldn’t be fretting about finishing fifth in the 6N.

The problem with asking this question is, who is having a chance to? Armand got called up for the back row as Lawes was hurt, despite being part of Exeter's very effective back row for the last season and a bit. Cole has looked broken for some time, but it isn't his place that Sinckler is pushing for, it's the sub's shirt. And as for SH, if Wigglesworth is getting the call, even with Sarries travails this season, what's the point of any other English 9 not shoving off to France for a pay day?

I don’t see Armond, Sinckler in the 1 shirt and Robson/Spencer suddenly making us 6N champions. I’ll agree that selecting Wigglesworth is just plain retarded.

[bitts]

Dean Richards with Dave Walder as attack coach.

[Puja]

Frankly it's Borthwick who ought to be looking worriedly towards the shepherd's crook. Our forward play has gone backwards at a rate of knots and I don't know it's unfair to ask what the hell he's been doing with them.

Puja

[bitts]

Frankly it's Borthwick who ought to be looking worriedly towards the shepherd's crook. Our forward play has gone backwards at a rate of knots and I don't know it's unfair to ask what the hell he's been doing with them.

Puja

We're not horrible in the set peice and that's it.

I'd also as him, and Eddie, if he watched any European matches. They seem to have been very surprised by the way non prem teams play.

If I were their employer I'd be asking questions about that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Which Tyler]

Frankly it's Borthwick who ought to be looking worriedly towards the shepherd's crook. Our forward play has gone backwards at a rate of knots and I don't know it's unfair to ask what the hell he's been doing with them.

Puja

We're not horrible in the set peice and that's it.

I'd also as him, and Eddie, if he watched any European matches. They seem to have been very surprised by the way non prem teams play.

If I were their employer I'd be asking questions about that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Yup, those are the biggest disappointments for me, the physical and mental exhaustion I can understand, even if it feels like clutching at straws

[Puja]

Frankly it's Borthwick who ought to be looking worriedly towards the shepherd's crook. Our forward play has gone backwards at a rate of knots and I don't know it's unfair to ask what the hell he's been doing with them.

Puja

We're not horrible in the set peice and that's it.

I'd also as him, and Eddie, if he watched any European matches. They seem to have been very surprised by the way non prem teams play.

If I were their employer I'd be asking questions about that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Exactly so. After watching Exeter, Leicester, Saracens and Bath all get utterly rinsed at the breakdown by Celtic teams under European refs, I am incoherent with rage that we thought playing Lawes and Robshaw together at flank and underresourcing the breakdown was a sensible plan. Even more so when we saw how poorly it fared against Scotland and then spent two weeks decidedly not fixing the problem so that it could happen again versus France.

Puja

[Banquo]

Frankly it's Borthwick who ought to be looking worriedly towards the shepherd's crook. Our forward play has gone backwards at a rate of knots and I don't know it's unfair to ask what the hell he's been doing with them.

Puja

We're not horrible in the set peice and that's it.

I'd also as him, and Eddie, if he watched any European matches. They seem to have been very surprised by the way non prem teams play.

If I were their employer I'd be asking questions about that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Exactly so. After watching Exeter, Leicester, Saracens and Bath all get utterly rinsed at the breakdown by Celtic teams under European refs, I am incoherent with rage that we thought playing Lawes and Robshaw together at flank and underresourcing the breakdown was a sensible plan. Even more so when we saw how poorly it fared against Scotland and then spent two weeks decidedly not fixing the problem so that it could happen again versus France.

Puja

Funnily enough, when you look at the detail of what has been happening, certainly v Fance, under-resourcing per se has not been the issue. What we've consistently seen is ball carriers failing to make a dent, and losing collision/contact a lot, and that's forced three to four folks to compete (owing to iffy skills too), leaving the next phase light on resourcing, compounded by lack of pace/reaction to what's happening, and rinse and repeat until the oppo see their chance to either compete or flood or both...so its a combination of poor carrying, poor decision making with the ball/what next, poor speed to the breakdown, which leads to the under/wrong resourcing. Today we over compensated and no-one to attack with often

[Puja]

We're not horrible in the set peice and that's it.

I'd also as him, and Eddie, if he watched any European matches. They seem to have been very surprised by the way non prem teams play.

If I were their employer I'd be asking questions about that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Exactly so. After watching Exeter, Leicester, Saracens and Bath all get utterly rinsed at the breakdown by Celtic teams under European refs, I am incoherent with rage that we thought playing Lawes and Robshaw together at flank and underresourcing the breakdown was a sensible plan. Even more so when we saw how poorly it fared against Scotland and then spent two weeks decidedly not fixing the problem so that it could happen again versus France.

Puja

Funnily enough, when you look at the detail of what has been happening, certainly v Fance, under-resourcing per se has not been the issue. What we've consistently seen is ball carriers failing to make a dent, and losing collision/contact a lot, and that's forced three to four folks to compete (owing to iffy skills too), leaving the next phase light on resourcing, compounded by lack of pace/reaction to what's happening, and rinse and repeat until the oppo see their chance to either compete or flood or both...so its a combination of poor carrying, poor decision making with the ball/what next, poor speed to the breakdown, which leads to the under/wrong resourcing. Today we over compensated and no-one to attack with often

You're right - underresourcing is the wrong turn of phrase. Stupidly resourcing? Failing to accomplish much when present? Letting others be first to the ball every single time? It's not really a lack of people - more of a lack of specialist people concentrating on it, meaning that others are forced to rush in to try and defend the ball, hence why Ford, Care, May, and Fazlet have been getting so much rucking practice this 6N. Mind, if all our forwards took the same attitude that May does into rucking then we wouldn't be complaining about anything. If it wasn't that we've seen him attempt to pack down on the side of a scrum, I'd suggest him for flanker.

Puja

[Banquo]

Exactly so. After watching Exeter, Leicester, Saracens and Bath all get utterly rinsed at the breakdown by Celtic teams under European refs, I am incoherent with rage that we thought playing Lawes and Robshaw together at flank and underresourcing the breakdown was a sensible plan. Even more so when we saw how poorly it fared against Scotland and then spent two weeks decidedly not fixing the problem so that it could happen again versus France.

Puja

Funnily enough, when you look at the detail of what has been happening, certainly v Fance, under-resourcing per se has not been the issue. What we've consistently seen is ball carriers failing to make a dent, and losing collision/contact a lot, and that's forced three to four folks to compete (owing to iffy skills too), leaving the next phase light on resourcing, compounded by lack of pace/reaction to what's happening, and rinse and repeat until the oppo see their chance to either compete or flood or both...so its a combination of poor carrying, poor decision making with the ball/what next, poor speed to the breakdown, which leads to the under/wrong resourcing. Today we over compensated and no-one to attack with often

You're right - underresourcing is the wrong turn of phrase. Stupidly resourcing? Failing to accomplish much when present? Letting others be first to the ball every single time? It's not really a lack of people - more of a lack of specialist people concentrating on it, meaning that others are forced to rush in to try and defend the ball, hence why Ford, Care, May, and Fazlet have been getting so much rucking practice this 6N. Mind, if all our forwards took the same attitude that May does into rucking then we wouldn't be complaining about anything. If it wasn't that we've seen him attempt to pack down on the side of a scrum, I'd suggest him for flanker.

Puja

Aye, its part lack of specialist, part lack of technique, part pre-programming, a big part determination imo, and a big part poor carrying and poor choices with and what to do the possession.

[Stom]

Exactly so. After watching Exeter, Leicester, Saracens and Bath all get utterly rinsed at the breakdown by Celtic teams under European refs, I am incoherent with rage that we thought playing Lawes and Robshaw together at flank and underresourcing the breakdown was a sensible plan. Even more so when we saw how poorly it fared against Scotland and then spent two weeks decidedly not fixing the problem so that it could happen again versus France.

Puja

Funnily enough, when you look at the detail of what has been happening, certainly v Fance, under-resourcing per se has not been the issue. What we've consistently seen is ball carriers failing to make a dent, and losing collision/contact a lot, and that's forced three to four folks to compete (owing to iffy skills too), leaving the next phase light on resourcing, compounded by lack of pace/reaction to what's happening, and rinse and repeat until the oppo see their chance to either compete or flood or both...so its a combination of poor carrying, poor decision making with the ball/what next, poor speed to the breakdown, which leads to the under/wrong resourcing. Today we over compensated and no-one to attack with often

You're right - underresourcing is the wrong turn of phrase. Stupidly resourcing? Failing to accomplish much when present? Letting others be first to the ball every single time? It's not really a lack of people - more of a lack of specialist people concentrating on it, meaning that others are forced to rush in to try and defend the ball, hence why Ford, Care, May, and Fazlet have been getting so much rucking practice this 6N. Mind, if all our forwards took the same attitude that May does into rucking then we wouldn't be complaining about anything. If it wasn't that we've seen him attempt to pack down on the side of a scrum, I'd suggest him for flanker.

Puja

Indeed. But it's not as if it's just been Lawes who's been caught out (though he has been the most obvious and most often), it's been 5-6 of the pack every week. Only really Mako and Robshaw have consistently rucked well, and Mako hasn't been hitting lots of rucks and Robshaw has been covering for 2.

[Scrumhead]

Funnily enough, when you look at the detail of what has been happening, certainly v Fance, under-resourcing per se has not been the issue. What we've consistently seen is ball carriers failing to make a dent, and losing collision/contact a lot, and that's forced three to four folks to compete (owing to iffy skills too), leaving the next phase light on resourcing, compounded by lack of pace/reaction to what's happening, and rinse and repeat until the oppo see their chance to either compete or flood or both...so its a combination of poor carrying, poor decision making with the ball/what next, poor speed to the breakdown, which leads to the under/wrong resourcing. Today we over compensated and no-one to attack with often

You're right - underresourcing is the wrong turn of phrase. Stupidly resourcing? Failing to accomplish much when present? Letting others be first to the ball every single time? It's not really a lack of people - more of a lack of specialist people concentrating on it, meaning that others are forced to rush in to try and defend the ball, hence why Ford, Care, May, and Fazlet have been getting so much rucking practice this 6N. Mind, if all our forwards took the same attitude that May does into rucking then we wouldn't be complaining about anything. If it wasn't that we've seen him attempt to pack down on the side of a scrum, I'd suggest him for flanker.

Puja

Aye, its part lack of specialist, part lack of technique, part pre-programming, a big part determination imo, and a big part poor carrying and poor choices with and what to do the possession.

Exactly this.

Seeing how well the Irish players strike the balance between knowing their roles in the game plan and reacting to what’s in front of them puts our players to shame.

They’re also able to summon a level of intensity/determination we don’t seem to able to match (except Brown).

[Stom]

You're right - underresourcing is the wrong turn of phrase. Stupidly resourcing? Failing to accomplish much when present? Letting others be first to the ball every single time? It's not really a lack of people - more of a lack of specialist people concentrating on it, meaning that others are forced to rush in to try and defend the ball, hence why Ford, Care, May, and Fazlet have been getting so much rucking practice this 6N. Mind, if all our forwards took the same attitude that May does into rucking then we wouldn't be complaining about anything. If it wasn't that we've seen him attempt to pack down on the side of a scrum, I'd suggest him for flanker.

Puja

Aye, its part lack of specialist, part lack of technique, part pre-programming, a big part determination imo, and a big part poor carrying and poor choices with and what to do the possession.

Exactly this.

Seeing how well the Irish players strike the balance between knowing their roles in the game plan and reacting to what’s in front of them puts our players to shame.

They’re also able to summon a level of intensity/determination we don’t seem to able to match (except Brown).

And because they're integral parts of the system, they don't make the silly mistakes Brown does alongside all the good work he does.

[Banquo]

You're right - underresourcing is the wrong turn of phrase. Stupidly resourcing? Failing to accomplish much when present? Letting others be first to the ball every single time? It's not really a lack of people - more of a lack of specialist people concentrating on it, meaning that others are forced to rush in to try and defend the ball, hence why Ford, Care, May, and Fazlet have been getting so much rucking practice this 6N. Mind, if all our forwards took the same attitude that May does into rucking then we wouldn't be complaining about anything. If it wasn't that we've seen him attempt to pack down on the side of a scrum, I'd suggest him for flanker.

Puja

Aye, its part lack of specialist, part lack of technique, part pre-programming, a big part determination imo, and a big part poor carrying and poor choices with and what to do the possession.

Exactly this.

Seeing how well the Irish players strike the balance between knowing their roles in the game plan and reacting to what’s in front of them puts our players to shame.

They’re also able to summon a level of intensity/determination we don’t seem to able to match (except Brown).

we are as one on this

But I'm going to now pick a bone with you- on the other thread you say (amongst other things), that Teo isn't very good at 12--- whilst acknowledging that Faz isn't a very good 10, and that we are ill-served at 9. So, given the above, how can you judge Teo?

I'm also slightly bothered about you writing Watson off, presumably on the basis of marginally losing a contest with Kearney in the air?

[16th man]

Just going to bump this post Shields as a lock, Brown on the wing and Francis on the bench.

[padprop]

The bigger problem lies in the tour squad he's picked, as he's given himself very little room to maneuver. He's obviously not confident in Hill's ability otherwise he would have put him in the squad, but he could have had Slater, Spencer or Attwood, each of which would have brought a physical edge.

I honestly don't know why he brings these players off at 25-35 minutes, yes it shows intent and I'm sure he hopes it will give the players a kick up the backside, but since he did it to Harrison and Burrell he stopped their england careers in their tracks.

[Banquo]

Well, this trend is only partly true of Lancaster and was not true of Johnson (Where we were average throughout his whole reign), Ashton (Where we were largely awful and then peaked half way through the world cup) and Robinson (Where we were awful all the time).

This period is more a measure of Eddie as a coach, where he can show if he has the ability to adapt to changing results, as opposed to keep picking the same winning team.

I would tend to agree, but for today's very bizarre spectacles, where he simply got obvious things very wrong. He painted himself into a corner.

[Timbo]

Whatever about some of Eddies decisions, the fact is that there is no cavalry waiting at home to save us. This squad is, give or take, as good as is available. There are 7 or 8 good, but not world class players, who are unavailable who could add something.

This team’s problems are solveable with the personnel we have imo, but why certain areas have shown no improvement i’m not sure.

[Banquo]

Whatever about some of Eddies decisions, the fact is that there is no cavalry waiting at home to save us. This squad is, give or take, as good as is available. There are 7 or 8 good, but not world class players, who are unavailable who could add something.

This team’s problems are solveable with the personnel we have imo, but why certain areas have shown no improvement i’m not sure.

This is true, but there was no excuse for playing Brown on the wing, then sticking with it, nor yanking Isiekwe......nor the dimwit penalties or calamitous defending.

[Oakboy]

Daly/Brown positional selection is simply bizzare. It leaves no hope for the regime, IMO.

[WaspInWales]

You can just tell the media are itching to start a campaign to get Eddie sacked before the world cup. Nothing would please some of them more in terms of click bait and column inches.

Would a loss next week be enough to ratchet up the pressure?

Or perhaps a whitewash?

The Beeb article is titled 'England's losing run continues...'

Players out of position, backrow issues still not sorted, unable to deal with the breakdown, defensive problems, leaking tries, seemingly unable to cope with a high intensity physical attack and Brown on the facking wing!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Brown continues to play on the wing, I am going to write a very strongly worded letter to my MP. He's bound to piss himself laughing as he's Welsh

[p/d]

Fckng shambles. The whole coaching set up should be sent packing. It was obvious during the AI we were not progressing yet we bought into his smart arse comments and flawed CV