Re: What next?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:05 am
I think we should go to The Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over.
I like the idea, but...
Will we have to kill the Queen?
I'd be interested to know Sarries results when at full strength; my perception has been their poor efforts have been when their best players haven't been there (unsurprisingly!). I know they struggled in Europe at full strength, but a lot of that was...guess what...breakdown.Timbo wrote:Emotional fatigue a huge factor imo. Not sure I buy that there’s an awful lot wrong physically.
Tell tale sign for me is Saracens, who even when not the best team in Europe have been operating as an credibly well oiled machine for 5/6 + years now. This season, packed full of England and Lions players they’ve looked switched off and going through the motions.
Good point. Pint of London Pride please.I R Geech wrote:I think we should go to The Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over.
Would’ve been nice to have found out. He may have stepped up. All we found out is yet more confirmation that Wiggy is the test rugby equivalent of the old bloke in the nursing home with zimmer frame.Puja wrote:Sadly, no. Robson is a poor man's Ben Youngs - nice breaks, keeps the defence honest, prone to some awful passes and will occasionally get utterly bullied out of a match. There is a fairly good argument that he's better than the crap Wigglesworth and Care have shown up this 6N, but the counter to that is he'd likely be just as crap given the same stresses. Sideqays movement at best.francoisfou wrote: One position where England are lacking is scrum half. Is there a Conor Murray somewhere, a Rhys Webb, or even a Greig Laidlaw to step up? I've heard the names Robson and Maunder mentioned but as I hardly see and Premiership rugby, I can't honestly comment.
Puja
Who would provide the ice for the post match drinks?Stom wrote:I honestly cannot see a single negative for dropping Farrell. Are there any?
Let's say Eddie wants the temperament that Farrell brings… And that that temperament is valuable to England (v. questionable, but go with me here)Stom wrote:I honestly cannot see a single negative for dropping Farrell. Are there any?
I agree. Referring to Robson as a ‘poor man’s Ben Youngs’ is slightly unfair. I’d say certain aspects of his game are better than Youngs and at least justify him being given a chance.Mellsblue wrote:Would’ve been nice to have found out. He may have stepped up. All we found out is yet more confirmation that Wiggy is the test rugby equivalent of the old bloke in the nursing home with zimmer frame.Puja wrote:Sadly, no. Robson is a poor man's Ben Youngs - nice breaks, keeps the defence honest, prone to some awful passes and will occasionally get utterly bullied out of a match. There is a fairly good argument that he's better than the crap Wigglesworth and Care have shown up this 6N, but the counter to that is he'd likely be just as crap given the same stresses. Sideqays movement at best.francoisfou wrote: One position where England are lacking is scrum half. Is there a Conor Murray somewhere, a Rhys Webb, or even a Greig Laidlaw to step up? I've heard the names Robson and Maunder mentioned but as I hardly see and Premiership rugby, I can't honestly comment.
Puja
I think the negatives against dropping Farrell and Brown are that we don’t have alternatives who are obviously better/hammering at the door.Renniks wrote:Let's say Eddie wants the temperament that Farrell brings… And that that temperament is valuable to England (v. questionable, but go with me here)Stom wrote:I honestly cannot see a single negative for dropping Farrell. Are there any?
Would you prefer both Hartley (over George / LCD) and Brown (over Watson / A.N.Other) or would you prefer Farrell?
Personally, I think that Farrell is hampering the team as much as giving Hartley a free ride is, and that Brown brings the temperament whilst being a solid player who will rarely let you down… And, as such, I still can't see a negative for dropping him either!
An actual selector trying to do so would probably lose their job.Stom wrote:I honestly cannot see a single negative for dropping Farrell. Are there any?
Is he really?Scrumhead wrote:I think the negatives against dropping Farrell and Brown are that we don’t have alternatives who are obviously better/hammering at the door.Renniks wrote:Let's say Eddie wants the temperament that Farrell brings… And that that temperament is valuable to England (v. questionable, but go with me here)Stom wrote:I honestly cannot see a single negative for dropping Farrell. Are there any?
Would you prefer both Hartley (over George / LCD) and Brown (over Watson / A.N.Other) or would you prefer Farrell?
Personally, I think that Farrell is hampering the team as much as giving Hartley a free ride is, and that Brown brings the temperament whilst being a solid player who will rarely let you down… And, as such, I still can't see a negative for dropping him either!
Yesterday demonstrated yet again that Farrell is not a test 10 and Watson is not a test 15. We also saw, that Te’o is not especially good at 12.
As it stands, Farrell is the best option at 12 and Brown is the best option at 15.
I’d like to see Woodward given a go at 15, but until there’s a 12 making an irresistible case to start, I can’t see a Farrell vs. Ford being a real debate.
If a selector lost his job for dropping Farrell, he should go to the press and say so. If it really is a mafia style thing, it needs to be outed just as much as the "gender pay gap" or anything else.Which Tyler wrote:An actual selector trying to do so would probably lose their job.Stom wrote:I honestly cannot see a single negative for dropping Farrell. Are there any?
I'm not at the stage yet where that'd be a positive
Have you read our press talking about Farrell? They'd be leading the pack calling for the selector's head.Stom wrote:If a selector lost his job for dropping Farrell, he should go to the press and say so. If it really is a mafia style thing, it needs to be outed just as much as the "gender pay gap" or anything else.Which Tyler wrote:An actual selector trying to do so would probably lose their job.Stom wrote:I honestly cannot see a single negative for dropping Farrell. Are there any?
I'm not at the stage yet where that'd be a positive
Maybe I'll see Robson play next Sunday as I'll be over for the Tigers v Wasps game.Puja wrote:Sadly, no. Robson is a poor man's Ben Youngs - nice breaks, keeps the defence honest, prone to some awful passes and will occasionally get utterly bullied out of a match. There is a fairly good argument that he's better than the crap Wigglesworth and Care have shown up this 6N, but the counter to that is he'd likely be just as crap given the same stresses. Sideqays movement at best. Ben Spencer is deservedly behind Wigglesworth for Saracens. Jack Maunder has all of the skills and a frankly orgasmic pass, but has struggled with injuries this year and is still very young, so he's not had a minute of Prem rugby behind White, Chudley, and Townsend at Exeter. Ben Vellacott is the other putative option, but he's young and wildly inconsistent, and I'm not convinced about his pass.francoisfou wrote: One position where England are lacking is scrum half. Is there a Conor Murray somewhere, a Rhys Webb, or even a Greig Laidlaw to step up? I've heard the names Robson and Maunder mentioned but as I hardly see and Premiership rugby, I can't honestly comment.
Basically the only hope for England is that Maunder recovers at the same time that White, Chudley and Townsend all go down with stubbed toes and he gets a good run to the end of the season.
Puja
Good! I like Robson a lot, his passing may not be awesome, but he gets there quickly and is decisive- a key point of difference v Ben Youngs imo.francoisfou wrote:Maybe I'll see Robson play next Sunday as I'll be over for the Tigers v Wasps game.Puja wrote:Sadly, no. Robson is a poor man's Ben Youngs - nice breaks, keeps the defence honest, prone to some awful passes and will occasionally get utterly bullied out of a match. There is a fairly good argument that he's better than the crap Wigglesworth and Care have shown up this 6N, but the counter to that is he'd likely be just as crap given the same stresses. Sideqays movement at best. Ben Spencer is deservedly behind Wigglesworth for Saracens. Jack Maunder has all of the skills and a frankly orgasmic pass, but has struggled with injuries this year and is still very young, so he's not had a minute of Prem rugby behind White, Chudley, and Townsend at Exeter. Ben Vellacott is the other putative option, but he's young and wildly inconsistent, and I'm not convinced about his pass.francoisfou wrote: One position where England are lacking is scrum half. Is there a Conor Murray somewhere, a Rhys Webb, or even a Greig Laidlaw to step up? I've heard the names Robson and Maunder mentioned but as I hardly see and Premiership rugby, I can't honestly comment.
Basically the only hope for England is that Maunder recovers at the same time that White, Chudley and Townsend all go down with stubbed toes and he gets a good run to the end of the season.
Puja
I remember it a little differently. I agree we looked quite good with Lozowski (and Francis TBF) at 12 in Argentina, but Slade was largely rubbish at 13 on the tour (he was particularly terrible in the second test).Stom wrote:Is he really?Scrumhead wrote:I think the negatives against dropping Farrell and Brown are that we don’t have alternatives who are obviously better/hammering at the door.Renniks wrote:
Let's say Eddie wants the temperament that Farrell brings… And that that temperament is valuable to England (v. questionable, but go with me here)
Would you prefer both Hartley (over George / LCD) and Brown (over Watson / A.N.Other) or would you prefer Farrell?
Personally, I think that Farrell is hampering the team as much as giving Hartley a free ride is, and that Brown brings the temperament whilst being a solid player who will rarely let you down… And, as such, I still can't see a negative for dropping him either!
Yesterday demonstrated yet again that Farrell is not a test 10 and Watson is not a test 15. We also saw, that Te’o is not especially good at 12.
As it stands, Farrell is the best option at 12 and Brown is the best option at 15.
I’d like to see Woodward given a go at 15, but until there’s a 12 making an irresistible case to start, I can’t see a Farrell vs. Ford being a real debate.
We haven't seen Ford at 10 and Te'o at 12. We've briefly seen Ford with Slade or Loz outside him, in a scratch team, where we looked the most threatening we've done for years, but struggled defensively.
The main thing a 12 needs to do is hold the defense. And therefore you need to have a threat ball in hand. Farrell does not. He's getting better, but he's not close to international standard with his timing, footwork, attacking workrate, passing and decision making. Which is kind of everything except defense. And as we've seen, he misses more tackles than pretty much everyone else.
Probably taking it too far but it looks to me as if Farrell has become the thorn in England's side. Not a top quality international 10 and a limited 12. If he is to start then move him out one to 13 (Sarries days when CH played 10) and field a genuine ball carrier at 12.fivepointer wrote:the Farrell love in continues unabated. No matter how poor England are, Owen gets a free pass.
One thing we do know is that May isn't an improvementfivepointer wrote:yes, it would have been nice to have tested Robson to see if he could make the step up. based on club form, he was deserving of an opportunity.
Frankly i would rather Chris Cook or Sam Harrison been given a go ahead of Wiggy.