Brad Shields cleared to become English

[Mellsblue]

He’s now English and therefore bad.

[Digby]

Well he doesn't look good

[Raggs]

He was eqp the whole time.

[Digby]

Good news (for me)

NZ may be able to stop Shields joining up with England, depends a bit on what his contract says, who it's with and what the process was

Player availability in circumstances of dual eligibility

9.38 When a Union enters into a written agreement with a Player that contemplates the Player representing that Union at senior or next Senior Fifteen-A-Side National Representative Team level (whether at fifteen-aside or seven-a-side Rugby), the Union may seek the Player’s written agreement that the Player shall not be available for selection, attendance and/or appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad of another Union during the term of that written agreement, including any extension thereof, provided that, prior to the execution of any such written agreement, the following conditions were satisfied:

(a) The Player had reached the age of majority. For the purposes of the Regulation(s), the age of majority shall be deemed to be acquired by a Player on his 18th birthday.

(b) Pursuant to Regulation 8, the Player was eligible to represent the senior or next senior National Representative Team of the Union with which he has entered into the written agreement and at least one other Union, (i.e., as a minimum requirement the Player had dual Union eligibility status).

(c) The Player had not represented the senior or next senior National Representative Team of any Union in any of the Matches or Tours specified in Regulation 8.3.

(d) As evidenced by completion of the standard form certification set out in Attachment 1, the Player received independent legal advice on the terms of the written agreement. In particular, the fact that in signing the written agreement the Player was acknowledging and accepting that during the course of the written agreement, and any extension thereof, he was foregoing his right to represent the senior or next senior National Representative Team of any other Union for which he may be eligible.

If, subject to compliance with the conditions set out in this Regulation 9.38, a Player’s written agreement so provides, then that Player shall not be available for selection, attendance and/or appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad of another Union during the term of the written agreement, or any extension thereof and during such period the Union with whom the Player is contracted shall have no obligation to release the Player to another Union.

[Puja]

Huh. I thought it was absolutely guaranteed that the NZRFU had no case, but that sounds like they do. Interesting.

Puja

[Digby]

Huh. I thought it was absolutely guaranteed that the NZRFU had no case, but that sounds like they do. Interesting.

Puja

That's what I thought too, turns out it's a rare case of my being wrong

[morepork]

You see, this is why you end up with Stuart Lancaster and his wardrobe of tracksuits as head of the national side.

[Lizard]

What happened to Brendan O’Connor. Is he good/English yet?

Who?

Oh. I’ve just Googled. If he was NZu20s in 2009 he’s probably been as good as he’s going to get by now.

[Puja]

What happened to Brendan O’Connor. Is he good/English yet?

Who?

Oh. I’ve just Googled. If he was NZu20s in 2009 he’s probably been as good as he’s going to get by now.

He was advertised as "Richie McCaw's understudy at the Crusaders" when he joined Leicester and "He has an English grandmother don't you know" as the commentators would remind us every time he did something even vaguely competent in a televised match. However all that hype and hoo-hah glossed over the fact that he's not actually very good, so he's never been anywhere near an England squad, despite some pundits' exultations.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I think O’Connor’s a good player. Granted he’s not lived up to the hype, but to say he’s ‘not very good’ is harsh.

[Stom]

I think O’Connor’s a good player. Granted he’s not lived up to the hype, but to say he’s ‘not very good’ is harsh.

Let's just say he's about as good as luke Wallace and leave it at that.

[p/d]

He can lose the bloody beard. Scruffy git.

[Scrumhead]

About the same as my beard! Albeit in Brown.

[p/d]

That sadens me Scrumhead. Had always assumed the emb was made up of clean shaven smartly attired semi retired gents partial to weekend hobbies an occasional indulgence of Snowballs and a hidden stash of vintage soft porn

[Lizard]

What happened to Brendan O’Connor. Is he good/English yet?

Who?

Oh. I’ve just Googled. If he was NZu20s in 2009 he’s probably been as good as he’s going to get by now.

He was advertised as "Richie McCaw's understudy at the Crusaders" when he joined Leicester and "He has an English grandmother don't you know" as the commentators would remind us every time he did something even vaguely competent in a televised match. However all that hype and hoo-hah glossed over the fact that he's not actually very good, so he's never been anywhere near an England squad, despite some pundits' exultations.

Puja

“Richie McCaw’s understudy” is taking the piss. He was in the Crusaders wider training group for one season, with 2 actual appearances. As well as the GOAT, he was understudying All Blacks Matt Todd and George Whitelock. (The 2012 Crusaders proper squad also included poachees Willi Heinz, Tyler Bleyendaal and Sean Maitland). He later got 40 caps for the Blues but then coach John Kirwan is not known for his astute selections.

[Puja]

I think O’Connor’s a good player. Granted he’s not lived up to the hype, but to say he’s ‘not very good’ is harsh.

He's a good player in the sense that he's a hell of a lot better than me and can do a functional job in the Premiership. He's not good enough to be a starting 7 of a side with top 4 aspirations. I'd say Stom's comparison to Luke Wallace is about right.

Puja

[Puja]

Who?

Oh. I’ve just Googled. If he was NZu20s in 2009 he’s probably been as good as he’s going to get by now.

He was advertised as "Richie McCaw's understudy at the Crusaders" when he joined Leicester and "He has an English grandmother don't you know" as the commentators would remind us every time he did something even vaguely competent in a televised match. However all that hype and hoo-hah glossed over the fact that he's not actually very good, so he's never been anywhere near an England squad, despite some pundits' exultations.

Puja

“Richie McCaw’s understudy” is taking the piss. He was in the Crusaders wider training group for one season, with 2 actual appearances. As well as the GOAT, he was understudying All Blacks Matt Todd and George Whitelock. (The 2012 Crusaders proper squad also included poachees Willi Heinz, Tyler Bleyendaal and Sean Maitland). He later got 40 caps for the Blues but then coach John Kirwan is not known for his astute selections.

The press releases of the time would have had us believe that he was only kept from being a Crusaders regular by being unlucky enough to be there at the same time as McCaw. I suspect his agent earned his money from this move.

Puja

[Lizard]

Cunning blokes, these agents.

I went to Uni with a bloke whose main claim to rugby fame was briefly holding the points-scoring record for a 2nd/3rd div. province. He now makes his crust by trimming 15% (or whatever) off paycheques addressed to Mr D. Carter.

[Puja]

Who?

Oh. I’ve just Googled. If he was NZu20s in 2009 he’s probably been as good as he’s going to get by now.

He was advertised as "Richie McCaw's understudy at the Crusaders" when he joined Leicester and "He has an English grandmother don't you know" as the commentators would remind us every time he did something even vaguely competent in a televised match. However all that hype and hoo-hah glossed over the fact that he's not actually very good, so he's never been anywhere near an England squad, despite some pundits' exultations.

Puja

“Richie McCaw’s understudy” is taking the piss. He was in the Crusaders wider training group for one season, with 2 actual appearances. As well as the GOAT, he was understudying All Blacks Matt Todd and George Whitelock. (The 2012 Crusaders proper squad also included poachees Willi Heinz, Tyler Bleyendaal and Sean Maitland). He later got 40 caps for the Blues but then coach John Kirwan is not known for his astute selections.

I've just found some absolute comedy gold: http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/eng ... ebut-52423

I've usually got a lot of time for Charlie Morgan and generally his analyses are pretty good but this... this is not his best work. He's got his narrative of "Brendon O'Connor coming to be the saviour of English rugby - just like McCaw, but English", but he's struggling so hard to justify it. From a cripple-fight between Leicester and Stade in 2015, O'Connor is lauded and analysed for:
- making no impact at a ruck and rejoining the defensive line
- bravely defending a ruck from a completely disinterested Stade scrum-half
- retaining possession when the attacker stayed on his feet and made 5m and no Stade player competes
- making a simple pass in midfield
- failing to stop Parisse on the gainline, but eventually bringing him down and happening to be present when someone else wins a turnover.
- being present when someone else wins a turnover again
- successfully making a tackle and not rolling away to kill Stade ball. Granted the ref was Lacey and Leicester were at home, so he was never going to get penalised
- being in position to support a break
- two actual turnovers of his own!
- making another simple pass, check out those Kiwi handling skills, ohhh yeah!
- picking up a loose ball and scoring a try
- picking up a loose ball and making 2-3m through a disorganised defence
- getting tackled on the gainline and being present while a penalty was won
- and to finish off with a flourish, another being present while a turnover is won.

"But this was more than merely a promising beginning. It was a classy performance from a clever player dripping in qualities that England need, namely influential breakdown nous."

Puja

[Lizard]

Well if you liked O’Connor you’ll love Shields.

[Lizard]

Good news (for me)

NZ may be able to stop Shields joining up with England, depends a bit on what his contract says, who it's with and what the process was

Player availability in circumstances of dual eligibility

9.38 When a Union enters into a written agreement with a Player that contemplates the Player representing that Union at senior or next Senior Fifteen-A-Side National Representative Team level (whether at fifteen-aside or seven-a-side Rugby), the Union may seek the Player’s written agreement that the Player shall not be available for selection, attendance and/or appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad of another Union during the term of that written agreement, including any extension thereof, provided that, prior to the execution of any such written agreement, the following conditions were satisfied:

(a) The Player had reached the age of majority. For the purposes of the Regulation(s), the age of majority shall be deemed to be acquired by a Player on his 18th birthday.

(b) Pursuant to Regulation 8, the Player was eligible to represent the senior or next senior National Representative Team of the Union with which he has entered into the written agreement and at least one other Union, (i.e., as a minimum requirement the Player had dual Union eligibility status).

(c) The Player had not represented the senior or next senior National Representative Team of any Union in any of the Matches or Tours specified in Regulation 8.3.

(d) As evidenced by completion of the standard form certification set out in Attachment 1, the Player received independent legal advice on the terms of the written agreement. In particular, the fact that in signing the written agreement the Player was acknowledging and accepting that during the course of the written agreement, and any extension thereof, he was foregoing his right to represent the senior or next senior National Representative Team of any other Union for which he may be eligible.

If, subject to compliance with the conditions set out in this Regulation 9.38, a Player’s written agreement so provides, then that Player shall not be available for selection, attendance and/or appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad of another Union during the term of the written agreement, or any extension thereof and during such period the Union with whom the Player is contracted shall have no obligation to release the Player to another Union.

That is interesting. Thanks.

I wonder what they will ask for in exchange for releasing him?

[Lizard]

I've been inspired: http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtop ... 27#p130027

[Lizard]

Apparently Shields has now made a request for dispensation from his contract.

EDIT: Sauce https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/r ... by-england

Sounds like NZRU aren’t totally against, talk of “goodwill” & “serious consideration” and Shields having been a “good servant of the game.”

[Raggs]

Apparently Shields has now made a request for dispensation from his contract.

EDIT: Sauce https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/r ... by-england

Sounds like NZRU aren’t totally against, talk of “goodwill” & “serious consideration” and Shields having been a “good servant of the game.”

I'm still not convinced there's anything for him to be released from. The NZherald article states every professional rugby player in NZ signs schedule 3, and it's been said Francis was generously released from it. Reg 9.38 cannot be signed by non-dual eligible players, and also not by players who aren't eligible for NZ. Either schedule 3 is not 9.38, and it's not binding, or it is 9.38, and nzru are attempting to abuse it on a mass scale, and have a large number of lawyers who are badly advising their clients when they have apparently explained it to them.

I do suspect NZRU will much prefer to go with the "Look at how generous we are." line, rather than taking it to World Rugby, and having their contracts actually tested.

EDIT - And beard jealousy is a terrible thing.

[Lizard]

Apparently Shields has now made a request for dispensation from his contract.

EDIT: Sauce https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/r ... by-england

Sounds like NZRU aren’t totally against, talk of “goodwill” & “serious consideration” and Shields having been a “good servant of the game.”

I'm still not convinced there's anything for him to be released from. The NZherald article states every professional rugby player in NZ signs schedule 3, and it's been said Francis was generously released from it. Reg 9.38 cannot be signed by non-dual eligible players, and also not by players who aren't eligible for NZ. Either schedule 3 is not 9.38, and it's not binding, or it is 9.38, and nzru are attempting to abuse it on a mass scale, and have a large number of lawyers who are badly advising their clients when they have apparently explained it to them.

I do suspect NZRU will much prefer to go with the "Look at how generous we are." line, rather than taking it to World Rugby, and having their contracts actually tested.

So the Herald says:

"NZR argue that Shields, like all professional players in the country, has signed a contract which clearly states he is only available to play for New Zealand teams.

All Super Rugby players whose eligibility has not already been captured by another nation, have to sign what is known as Schedule Three as part of their contract."

The bit in red is plainly wrong as it is written, otherwise there wouldn't be Pacific Island capped players in NZ Super Rugby teams. The bit in blue seems credible, though.

Regs 9.1 and 9.2 set up the general rules that a National Union has the right to its eligible players, and other unions must release those players, for matches in the designated windows. Reg 9.38 provides an exception to those general rules. I think we can safely assume that "Schedule Three" is part of the standard NZRU contract intended to implement the exception to the player-release requirement allowed under reg. 9.38.

The key part of reg 9.38 is at the end. It says that if the conditions set out in that reg. are met for a particular player under contract to a national union, then that player "shall not be available" for another nation and the national union has no obligation to release the player.

The conditions of reg. 9.38 (broken right down) as applied to Shields are:
1. The player must have a written agreement with a national union. There is no doubt that Shields has a written contract with the NZRU.
2. The agreement must "contemplate" that Shields will be available for the All Blacks, Junior All Blacks or All Blacks Sevens. This is likely to be a standard clause for all players not already captured by another country.
3. Shields must have agreed that he wouldn't be available for any other country for the term of his contract. I expect this is what Schedule 3 covers.
4. Shields must have been over 18 before signing his contract. He was 21 before he signed for Super Rugby.
5. Shields must have been eligible for another country before signing his contract. We know that he was England Qualified by birth.
6. Shields must not have been captured for any country before signing. He clearly wasn't.
7. Shields must have completed a certificate showing that he had received independent legal advice and that he acknowledged and accepted that during the term of his contract he could represent any other nation. Presumably, Schedule 3 covers this stuff.

I think is highly likely that the NZRU does not have to release Shields for England until his current contract ends, which is after Super Rugby wraps up this year(the final is on 4 August).

The way the Herald has explained it, it seems that non-captured, non-dual qualified NZ players also sign Schedule 3. Who knows if this is right, or what purpose that could serve.