RugbyRebels

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Stom wrote:
Does this not say that Jones has done a good job? All in all, that is.

Or perhaps that the gap between internationals and the AP is wider than ever.

Now, those are two worthy debates.

Jones, IMO, is simply a results merchant. His career track record is fairly short of long-term, constructive development. Basically, in employer-terms, it is win or frick off. Maybe, just maybe, a few players will prove to have been significantly improved by his regime.


The gap issue, I'm not sure about. I still believe that a combined XV from Saracens and Exeter could beat all but a few international teams. Swap out the foreigners for the likes of Daly, Cipriani and Launchbury and you have a team that should be up with the top group. I'm convinced that it is largely about 'producing it on the day'. After the 6N I have major reservations, not about the players, but Jones's ability to do that. In 5 matches he produced not a single 'best possible' performance.

I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree there.

A combined Sarries and Exeter team would beat most club sides hands down, sure. But I'm not convinced it would step up to international level.

They are two well oiled machines, not built on individuals. And they play two very different systems. Do you pick the majority from 1 of them and use their system? A system that failed in Europe?

Well, you'd have to assume that it was a different head coach from both so you'd be backing the players to adapt to a new system, not unreasonably.

Well if you’re going to play one of the two systems, you’d have to go with Saracens. Exeter’s gameplan may not have been as effective in Europe but that doesn’t mean their players are incapable of adapting.

Based upon last season, my combined XXIII would be:

1. M. Vunipola
2. George
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Armand
7. S. Simmonds
8. B. Vunipola
9. Spencer
10. Farrell
11. Woodburn
12. Barritt
13. Slade
14. Nowell
15. Goode

16. Cowan-Dickie
17. Moon
18. Longbottom*
19. Skinner
20. Wray
21. Townsend
22. J. Simmonds
23. Lozowski

*only on account of there being no other option

Some tight calls such as Barritt over Lozowski, Moon/Barrington and Wray/Ewers but a very decent side all the same.

I genuinely think that side could give some tier 1 sides a run for their money.

That's a decent pack - unsurprising when you have 3/4 first choice internationals - but a very uninspiring back line by international standards - unsurprising when you have 1. Probably could beat Italy though.


In any case I make Stom right and says its a mix of both. A few thorny issues aside, Jones has picked the right guys - but then, a few thorny issues aside, a five year old could pick the right guys.

Whether you blame Jones or the AP (or a mix of both) for nobody really coming in and challenging who the right guys are is a different matter. Or just plain old bad luck - quite a few early contenders to improve the team have had really bad injury luck iirc.

Scrumhead wrote:Well if you’re going to play one of the two systems, you’d have to go with Saracens. Exeter’s gameplan may not have been as effective in Europe but that doesn’t mean their players are incapable of adapting.

Based upon last season, my combined XXIII would be:

1. M. Vunipola
2. George
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Armand
7. S. Simmonds
8. B. Vunipola
9. Spencer
10. Farrell
11. Woodburn
12. Barritt
13. Slade
14. Nowell
15. Goode

16. Cowan-Dickie
17. Moon
18. Longbottom*
19. Skinner
20. Wray
21. Townsend
22. J. Simmonds
23. Lozowski

*only on account of there being no other option

Some tight calls such as Barritt over Lozowski, Moon/Barrington and Wray/Ewers but a very decent side all the same.

I genuinely think that side could give some tier 1 sides a run for their money.

How about we bring in a few players from other teams, as was suggested, to make it a bit more even?

Say:

Mako
George
Williams
Itoje
Kruis
Armand
Curry
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
May
Barritt
Slade
Nowell
Daly

Suddenly doesn't look so bad. But I think we can make it even better... Barritt is a limited player afterall, and Slade hasn't been great...

So what if we shift Farrell out for Ford and put Joseph in at 13?

Oh wait, does that kinda look like a potential England team?

Just needs Launch in there. So that's 7 players from teams other than Exe and Sarries. Or half the team. And that's before we get to marginal calls.

We really need to play better rugby than Exe or Sarries. And we have a good handful of quality players outside of those two teams. In fact, some of our best players are outside those teams, excepting the Vunipolas. I do think there are things to be learnt from both. Sarries' use of forwards in the backline for one.