Second Test

[francoisfou]

A "descent" 9 might help as well.

Help to make the team fall even further

[pandion]

I reckon we can bounce back, as their defence was shoddy, but we have to select better. try and retain discipline, and learn a new defensive system. FWIW I dont think Faz would be able to unpick them as well as Ford; if you play him, the pack will have to really step up and dominate for long periods.

That's what I'd aim for and go with a 6/2 bench to keep it up. I think it's easier with who's available to sure things up in the midfield and play with more power than guile. I can't see us faring much better without beating them upfront. Having said that Faz and Loz were excellent in the final (yes I know Loz was at 13) and Slade is in good form so if we are on the front foot we'll score points.

I'd much prefer Loz at 12, given what Wasps did to him at 13; I'm not convinced by Slades defence at 13, but he's adapting to the blitz zealotry so have some sympathy.

I hate a 6/2 split, but can see the logic. However if we fail with your plan to dominate, it could get messy.

Yes but I'd hope that even if we can't dominate the collisions and Rucks we could pressure the set peice and drive the maul.

[p/d]

A "descent" 9 might help as well.

Help to make the team fall even further

(Usually Mikey or Banquo pick me up on that)

[Galfon]

I was inking a 'swift descent 9..' but pulled out just in time.
Eng. have been blessed with many of this calibre over the years, unfortunately.

[Scrumhead]

Look, if we're being perfectly honest, we're not too far away from good. Where we lack comes down to the same few questions. And I feel like the answers are less to do with personnel and more to do with coaching and leadership. So making drastic changes doesn't seem like the way forward to me.

There are a few places where we have a tangible upgrade, mind. Launch, if fit, is an upgrade at lock. Shields or Wilson over Robshaw, Daly back to the wing. Williams could come in for Sinckler. And that's about it.

I'd love to see Genge on the bench. His fire coming on late game is something that can have a big impact. Simmonds, too. This isn't a giant, powerful SA team anymore. They're leaner and swifter. Simmonds should be able to make inroads late game.

They are a sizeable team- the backs are big lads as well.

I think we are a long way from from good.

I tend to agree with Stom. I’m as downhearted as anyone about the way we are playing at the moment, but I would agree that the issues are more systematic and psychological rather than personnel. If those issues were addressed correctly, I think we have the squad and the ability to beat most teams most of the time.

The trouble is, I have lost trust in Eddie’s ability to recognise what the issues are or provide the right solutions.

[Stom]

Look, if we're being perfectly honest, we're not too far away from good. Where we lack comes down to the same few questions. And I feel like the answers are less to do with personnel and more to do with coaching and leadership. So making drastic changes doesn't seem like the way forward to me.

There are a few places where we have a tangible upgrade, mind. Launch, if fit, is an upgrade at lock. Shields or Wilson over Robshaw, Daly back to the wing. Williams could come in for Sinckler. And that's about it.

I'd love to see Genge on the bench. His fire coming on late game is something that can have a big impact. Simmonds, too. This isn't a giant, powerful SA team anymore. They're leaner and swifter. Simmonds should be able to make inroads late game.

They are a sizeable team- the backs are big lads as well.

I think we are a long way from from good.

Let's put it this way, then: we showed plenty of good things.

I feel like the things we did badly were exaggerated by opposition strengths. For instance, our outside defense was poor and they had 2 flyers on the wings. So poor old Mikey was destined to be shredded.

I really don't think there are many tweaks needed to turn this team into a good one. Our attack, for instance, showed a lot of good. Which is a huge upgrade in a very short period of time. So imagine what could happen if/when we get in a new defense coach...

[Mikey Brown]

Wow. Brits added to the squad.

[Danno]

Wow. Brits added to the squad.

Didn't he retire?

[Mellsblue]

Let's hope he plays as well as his fellow Sarries forwards did last week.

[twitchy]

He will score for sure.

[fivepointer]

Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) will join the squad as England’s third hooker to cover Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs).
Singleton is called up as a precaution after Cowan-Dickie experienced hamstring tightness following the first Test in Johannesburg.

Always thought going into a 3 test series with only 2 hookers was risky.

[padprop]

I'm all for the future and all that but I feel we are going too far the other way at times. Surely you'd have a proven international performer like Youngs or a more experienced premiership option like Dunn before Singleton. Just like how Spencer, Slater and Attwood have been ignored at the expense of Hill and IK, and lo and behold, we are now suffering for it.

[fivepointer]

Dunn wasnt available, neither Tommy Taylor i believe. Youngs wouldnt have been a bad stop gap selection but Eddie seems averse to those.
Certainly Attwood and/or Slater would have made sense covering lock (Spencer injured too unfortunately)

[Mellsblue]

You are Stephen Jones and I claim my 10,000ZAR.
How do you know any of Attwood, Slater or Spencer would’ve done any better. They aren’t the most mobile at the best of times. Goodness knows how sluggish they would’ve been at altitude. Also, none of those three will usurp Launch, Itoje, Lawes or Kruis. So, why waste caps on them when we can get some experience into Isiekwe. I’ll grant you, I have no idea why Hill is there.
Have you watched Singleton play this year? He is there on form.

[Banquo]

Look, if we're being perfectly honest, we're not too far away from good. Where we lack comes down to the same few questions. And I feel like the answers are less to do with personnel and more to do with coaching and leadership. So making drastic changes doesn't seem like the way forward to me.

There are a few places where we have a tangible upgrade, mind. Launch, if fit, is an upgrade at lock. Shields or Wilson over Robshaw, Daly back to the wing. Williams could come in for Sinckler. And that's about it.

I'd love to see Genge on the bench. His fire coming on late game is something that can have a big impact. Simmonds, too. This isn't a giant, powerful SA team anymore. They're leaner and swifter. Simmonds should be able to make inroads late game.

They are a sizeable team- the backs are big lads as well.

I think we are a long way from from good.

Let's put it this way, then: we showed plenty of good things.

I feel like the things we did badly were exaggerated by opposition strengths. For instance, our outside defense was poor and they had 2 flyers on the wings. So poor old Mikey was destined to be shredded.

I really don't think there are many tweaks needed to turn this team into a good one. Our attack, for instance, showed a lot of good. Which is a huge upgrade in a very short period of time. So imagine what could happen if/when we get in a new defense coach...

I really think we need to do a massive amount of work on discipline, on breakdown technique and decision making, and on defence. That was true before last Saturday; I liked the outcome of what happened in attack, and its a shame that many want to chuck that baby out with the bath water, though I'd caveat that by pointing out that SA's defence in the backs was pi55 poor.

I think that remains a lot of tweaks/major overhaul to get to good. There also seems to be a problem mentally with the team, but suspect a lot is down to many players (perhaps the 'Sarries lot', who you seem keen on labelling, who are wrecked from non-stop high pressure rugby for a year or more).

[Stom]

They are a sizeable team- the backs are big lads as well.

I think we are a long way from from good.

Let's put it this way, then: we showed plenty of good things.

I feel like the things we did badly were exaggerated by opposition strengths. For instance, our outside defense was poor and they had 2 flyers on the wings. So poor old Mikey was destined to be shredded.

I really don't think there are many tweaks needed to turn this team into a good one. Our attack, for instance, showed a lot of good. Which is a huge upgrade in a very short period of time. So imagine what could happen if/when we get in a new defense coach...

I really think we need to do a massive amount of work on discipline, on breakdown technique and decision making, and on defence. That was true before last Saturday; I liked the outcome of what happened in attack, and its a shame that many want to chuck that baby out with the bath water, though I'd caveat that by pointing out that SA's defence in the backs was pi55 poor.

I think that remains a lot of tweaks/major overhaul to get to good. There also seems to be a problem mentally with the team, but suspect a lot is down to many players (perhaps the 'Sarries lot', who you seem keen on labelling, who are wrecked from non-stop high pressure rugby for a year or more).

Yeah. If you put it that way...

Our forwards captain looks like he's just completed 7 triathlons in 1 day, our captain is knackered and isn't exactly the calmest fellow in the first place...

Basically, our defensive organizer in the forwards looks like he needs a month on a beach, while our defensive organizer in the backs is injured, and we haven't replaced him.

Actually, let's look at that.

Average points conceded with Joseph starting since EJ took over: 16.8
Average without Joseph starting: 23.5

That's an extra try a match...

[Oakboy]

We desperately need Launchbury to be fit.

Beyond that and obviously swapping Brown and Daly, personnel changes are likely to be minimal and conservative. It's always a difficult exercise to be constructively critical because of the 'I wouldn't start from here' slant.

I'd imagine that the SA head coach will be confident of improving defence by some margin and therefore their overall performance by a fair bit. I suspect the level they will reach will be beyond anything that Jones can achieve.

[padprop]

You are Stephen Jones and I claim my 10,000ZAR.
How do you know any of Attwood, Slater or Spencer would’ve done any better. They aren’t the most mobile at the best of times. Goodness knows how sluggish they would’ve been at altitude. Also, none of those three will usurp Launch, Itoje, Lawes or Kruis. So, why waste caps on them when we can get some experience into Isiekwe. I’ll grant you, I have no idea why Hill is there.
Have you watched Singleton play this year? He is there on form.

I'm sure they would have hit more than 7 rucks.

It's IK's first season and he's been playing more at 6 and he's barely 20. I think its quite a rational thought that we could have been better served with a second row who's actually shown some form for a number of years. He hasn't been knocking on the door anywhere near as hard as Itoje was a few years ago, and even he had to wait longer. To be honest my main issue isn't the fact he's brought IK but the fact he's brought Hill also, so we are partially in agreement, which has inevitably meant that because Launch is injured we only have one stand-out international second row. Launch, Itoje, IK, +Spencer/Attwood/Slater would have been fine but due to the way eddie is selecting its inevitably resulting in people with little experience getting exposed.

Yes I've seen him play and he's been good in the loose, but if George goes down in the first minute, I'm not terribly excited about the idea of him throwing in. Feel free to quote some stat about how he throws at 110% in the aviva premiership but as the deep breath I take before every Cowan-Dickie throw shows, the stats don't necessarily translate.

[Peej]

Cowan-Dickie also has a worrying tendency to botch late, important throws it seems. This past weekend, the game against France in the 6N...

[Mellsblue]

You are Stephen Jones and I claim my 10,000ZAR.
How do you know any of Attwood, Slater or Spencer would’ve done any better. They aren’t the most mobile at the best of times. Goodness knows how sluggish they would’ve been at altitude. Also, none of those three will usurp Launch, Itoje, Lawes or Kruis. So, why waste caps on them when we can get some experience into Isiekwe. I’ll grant you, I have no idea why Hill is there.
Have you watched Singleton play this year? He is there on form.

I'm sure they would have hit more than 9 rucks.

It's IK's first season and he's been playing more at 6 and he's barely 20. I think its quite a rational thought that we could have been better served with a second row who's actually shown some form for a number of years. He hasn't been knocking on the door anywhere near as hard as Itoje was a few years ago, and even he had to wait longer. To be honest my main issue isn't the fact he's brought IK but the fact he's brought Hill also, so we are partially in agreement, which has inevitably meant that because Launch is injured we only have one stand-out international second row. Launch, Itoje, IK, +Spencer/Attwood/Slater would have been fine but due to the way eddie is selecting its inevitably resulting in people with little experience getting exposed.

Yes I've seen him play and he's been good in the loose, but if George goes down in the first minute, I'm not terribly excited about the idea of him throwing in. Feel free to quote some stat about how he throws at 110% in the aviva premiership but as the deep breath I take before every Cowan-Dickie throw shows, the stats don't necessarily translate.

At least we can agree on Hill. I just take the route that if we’re talking about 8th choice lock I’d rather get more experience into a young player, who may well be first choice one day, than someone past their best who happens to weigh more. As you say, Isiekwe has had a quality season and he deserved the chance. I’d also much rather him on the hard grounds in SA than the ponderous Attwood or Slater.

Not sure you can state your preference for Youngs and then question Singleton’s throwing.

[Mellsblue]

Cowan-Dickie also has a worrying tendency to botch late, important throws it seems. This past weekend, the game against France in the 6N...

All the more reason to get experience in him. Who would you pick instead?

[Oakboy]

I think Itoje is lucky to be in the team currently. Injuries keep him there. I'm a fan but he's failed to maintain standard, never mind make progress. It's the old hobby horse, I know, but selection for the Lions put him back a year in terms of progress. Ideally, he's one who needs a few months off to reassess where he's at. I hope he's young and intelligent enough to come back more strongly next season. What a waste otherwise!

I can see him being a victim of ruthless RWC team selection if he's not careful (in terms of starting XV, anyway).

[Oakboy]

Cowan-Dickie also has a worrying tendency to botch late, important throws it seems. This past weekend, the game against France in the 6N...

All the more reason to get experience in him. Who would you pick instead?

Taylor, if fit, could be a better long-term option, IMO. Currently, persevering with C-D is best but he needs to get the throwing right. One bad throw matters little but he seems to bugger up the important ones. An unreliable hooker in such circumstances really messes up chasing the game with limited time left.

[Mellsblue]

Cowan-Dickie also has a worrying tendency to botch late, important throws it seems. This past weekend, the game against France in the 6N...

All the more reason to get experience in him. Who would you pick instead?

Taylor, if fit, could be a better long-term option, IMO. Currently, persevering with C-D is best but he needs to get the throwing right. One bad throw matters little but he seems to bugger up the important ones. An unreliable hooker in such circumstances really messes up chasing the game with limited time left.

Taylor isn’t fit.

[Oakboy]

All the more reason to get experience in him. Who would you pick instead?

Taylor, if fit, could be a better long-term option, IMO. Currently, persevering with C-D is best but he needs to get the throwing right. One bad throw matters little but he seems to bugger up the important ones. An unreliable hooker in such circumstances really messes up chasing the game with limited time left.

Taylor isn’t fit.

Understood, just expressed things badly (as usual). LCD perseverance as there is no choice.