Saracens vs Gloucester

[twitchy]

Unbelievable how much ball 12t is taking at first receiver. If you didn’t know better you’d say he was playing 10.

Yep. Very noticeable. I think they were trying to protect Cipriani from Saracens line speed and try to get him to free up Sharples and Woodward in the wide channels but it didn’t really work.

It was basically irrelevant because they got smoked up front.

[Timbo]

Unbelievable how much ball 12t is taking at first receiver. If you didn’t know better you’d say he was playing 10.

Yep. Very noticeable. I think they were trying to protect Cipriani from Saracens line speed and try to get him to free up Sharples and Woodward in the wide channels but it didn’t really work.

It was basically irrelevant because they got smoked up front.

Didn’t help that 12T took the ball standing still and then refused to run forwards when he received the ball.

[Scrumhead]

Unbelievable how much ball 12t is taking at first receiver. If you didn’t know better you’d say he was playing 10.

Yep. Very noticeable. I think they were trying to protect Cipriani from Saracens line speed and try to get him to free up Sharples and Woodward in the wide channels but it didn’t really work.

Not in the slightest!!

As in you disagree? Or as in it didn’t work in the slightest?

[Mellsblue]

Yep. Very noticeable. I think they were trying to protect Cipriani from Saracens line speed and try to get him to free up Sharples and Woodward in the wide channels but it didn’t really work.

Not in the slightest!!

As in you disagree? Or as in it didn’t work in the slightest?

The second.

[Scrumhead]

Definitely didn’t! A bit of a reality check for Gloucester - they’re a good side but not at the same level as Saracens or Exeter yet. I’m curious to see how much of a difference Mostert, Dreyer and Kriel make.

That said, I’m sure they’ll be back to winning ways against Quins next week!

[Raggs]

Wasps played Cips at 12 a lot as well, depending on circumstance. We'd have Gopperth/Eastmond normally at 10, drawing and passing, Cips then making the killer decision from 12. All depended on field position and what Cips wanted though.

[Timbo]

Wasps played Cips at 12 a lot as well, depending on circumstance. We'd have Gopperth/Eastmond normally at 10, drawing and passing, Cips then making the killer decision from 12. All depended on field position and what Cips wanted though.

Both those two are excellent at stepping in at first receiver. Happy receiving the ball in motion, taking it to the line, running very square where needed...

Twelvetrees completely static, just shipping ball on. Would be interesting to see how Cips and Owen Williams might dovetail.

[Puja]

Wasps played Cips at 12 a lot as well, depending on circumstance. We'd have Gopperth/Eastmond normally at 10, drawing and passing, Cips then making the killer decision from 12. All depended on field position and what Cips wanted though.

Both those two are excellent at stepping in at first receiver. Happy receiving the ball in motion, taking it to the line, running very square where needed...

Twelvetrees completely static, just shipping ball on. Would be interesting to see how Cips and Owen Williams might dovetail.

Hey, if Cipriani wants to play for England, he's got to get used to playing with a 12 who does that!

I'm not entirely sure how Owen Williams would improve the situation though. He's hardly a livewire.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Was it my confirmation bias, or did it go a whole lot better when Atkinson came on at 12 and they played more, erm, traditionally. I’m all for not playing in rigid structures based on shirt number but Cips is a 10 for a reason and 12t a 12 (13, if Banquo still reads the EMB) for a reason.

[fivepointer]

It did. Atkinson did add something a bit different and took his try very nicely. Think 12t is there for goal kicking primarily. Atkinson is at least as good a distributor and probably offers a bit more as a runner.

[Digby]

There are issues with Twelvetrees but without doubt he's competent to carry the ball up, so it'd help to know what the issue was, bad ball and decision making
, attempting to follow plans from Ackermann or calls of Cipriani? Tricky one to judge as is

One obvious problem is Glaws got nothing out of a left and right footed set of kicking options, and the solution shouldn't rest with Heinz

[Timbo]

Wasps played Cips at 12 a lot as well, depending on circumstance. We'd have Gopperth/Eastmond normally at 10, drawing and passing, Cips then making the killer decision from 12. All depended on field position and what Cips wanted though.

Both those two are excellent at stepping in at first receiver. Happy receiving the ball in motion, taking it to the line, running very square where needed...

Twelvetrees completely static, just shipping ball on. Would be interesting to see how Cips and Owen Williams might dovetail.

Hey, if Cipriani wants to play for England, he's got to get used to playing with a 12 who does that!

I'm not entirely sure how Owen Williams would improve the situation though. He's hardly a livewire.

Puja

Owen Williams is a (fairly good) natural 10, so those habits will be pretty ingrained.

This has been done to death, but 100% disagree on Farrell. He’s always in motion when he receives the ball and is incredibly direct attacking the line hard.

[Raggs]

Farrell runs straight before passing, it's been done with years of practice, it's not guile or attacking intent, it's what you're supposed to do, so he's trained himself to do it. On occasion he even makes a break. It's fine at 10, he does enough to just about hold the defence, but at 12 it's just no good.

[Scrumhead]

There are issues with Twelvetrees but without doubt he's competent to carry the ball up, so it'd help to know what the issue was, bad ball and decision making
, attempting to follow plans from Ackermann or calls of Cipriani? Tricky one to judge as is

One obvious problem is Glaws got nothing out of a left and right footed set of kicking options, and the solution shouldn't rest with Heinz

From what I could see it was a few factors. Timbo is bang on when he said Twelvetrees was taking the ball static and just shipping it on. It was also slow ball most of the time because Sarries were doing a good job (legally and illegally) of making the rucks a mess.

The third problem was that a good chunk of the time, Twelvetrees was passing 4 or 5m back which meant Cipriani (or whoever received the pass) was probably a good 6m behind the original gainline when they took the ball with an aggressive Sarries defence bearing down on them.

Gloucester didn’t really adapt until Atkinson came on.

[Mellsblue]

I assume they thought they could get outside the blitz by getting Cips deeper and wider. It didn’t work and never looked liked working but they kept on trying! They should’ve tried plan b earlier or at least tried to drag more Sarries defenders into and around the breakdown before continuing with plan a.

[Digby]

They've surely to look at their kicking game, so much easier to have made inroads there than suddenly gain ascendancy over the Sarries setpiece and breakdown

[Scrumhead]

I assume they thought they could get outside the blitz by getting Cips deeper and wider. It didn’t work and never looked liked working but they kept on trying! They should’ve tried plan b earlier or at least tried to drag more Sarries defenders into and around the breakdown before continuing with plan a.

Yep. This is what I was getting at yesterday. You just articulated it a little more eloquently.

[Mellsblue]

I assume they thought they could get outside the blitz by getting Cips deeper and wider. It didn’t work and never looked liked working but they kept on trying! They should’ve tried plan b earlier or at least tried to drag more Sarries defenders into and around the breakdown before continuing with plan a.

Yep. This is what I was getting at yesterday. You just articulated it a little more eloquently.

This probably means you are on the wrong side of the argument! It’s akin to thinking something whilst watching a match on Saturday only to read Stephen Jones agrees with you on Sunday.

[Scrumhead]

Eh? If you’re comparing me with Stephen Jones, I’m greatly offended.

[Mellsblue]

I’m comparing myself to Stephen Jones. Sadly, I’m only slightly offended.