RugbyRebels

I've not fact-checked this one, but I saw it on the Tier 2 Rugby blog.

Number of "Samoan" All Blacks born in Samoa with no schooling in NZ: 1 (Alama Ieremia).

1 - NZ last year became the first nation to win 2 World Cups in succession
2 - The 4 World Cups staged in the Northern Hemsiphere were all won by Southern Hemisphere teams
3 - NZ entered last year's tournament with an 86.05% winning average at the event, SA 85.71%, Australia 83%, England 72.50%.
4 - New Zealand had never previously reached a final in the Northern Hemisphere
5 - 12 teams have played at every World Cup - NZ, Australia, England, France, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Argentina, Italy, Romania, Canada & Japan
6 - Only 5 teams, NZ, SA, Australia, England & France have reached the final
7 - NZ & Australia have appeared in the most finals (4), followed by England & France (3). SA has appeared in 2, winning both.
8 - NZ has reached 7/8 semi finals.
9 - NZ & SA have never finished lower than 5th
10 - NZ holds the record for consecutive wins (14), followed by Australia (12)
11 - Ireland has never made the semi finals
12 - Italy has never made the quarter-finals
13 - Samoa & Fiji have made the quarter-finals twice each, Canada once.
14 - Namibia had its best World Cup to date last year, finishing 18th.
15 - Argentina's improvement from 14th in 1991 to 3rd in 2007 is the biggest spread in terms of World Cup finishes by one team (11)
16 - Uruguay is the only tier 3 team to win at the World Cup and has done so twice
17 - Spain is the only team which failed to score a try
18 - There have been 6 centuries, 3 by NZ, but no team has conceded a century more than once
19 - Last year's World Cup was the first not to feature a debutante, with Uruguay's return in place of Russia the only change from 2011
20 - The previous 3 World Cups had featured only one debutante, on each occasion European

Does winning a 6N Grand Slam mean anything in NZ?..

Not really.

Of the 8 GS winners since 2000 (when 5N -> 6N), NZ has played 6 of them in the same year.

England beat us in 2003 (15-13)
France drew in 2002 (20-20)

Everyone else has lost, usually heavily:
France 2004 (13-40)
Wales 2005 (3-41)
Wales 2008 (9-29)
Wales 2012 (10-33)

We did not play Ireland in 2009 or France in 2010.

Continuing the theme - 6N Grand Slammers on "Summer" Tours:

France, 2002: lost to Argentina and twice to Australia.

England, 2003: Beat NZ and Aust.

France, 2004: Beat USA & Canada (10/10 for supporting 2nd tier sides, but 2/10 for setting champion team a challenge!)

Wales, 2005: beat USA & Canada (Lions year so not quite in the same category as France '04).

Wales, 2008: lost twice to SA.

Ireland, 2009: beat Canada & USA (Lions year again).

France, 2010: lost to SA and Arg.

Wales, 2012: lost 3 times to Australia.

So I would say that winning a 6N Grand Slam means you are a dead cert to beat Canada and USA but unless you are a once-in-history team like SCW's England, even Argentina is a real stretch.

Rugby Championship 54 Six Nations 16 at the Rugby World Cup

RC Breakdown (v Eng, Fra, Wal, Sco, Ire, Ita):
New Zealand 22-2 (3-0, 5-2, 3-0, 5-0, 1-0, 5-0)
South Africa 8-1 (3-1, 1-0, 2-0, 2-0, 0-0, 0-0)
Australia 14-6 (3-3, 1-1, 5-1, 2-0, 4-1, 1-0)
Argentina 8-7 (0-2, 2-1, 0-2, 2-0, 3-1, 1-1)

6N Breakdown (v NZ, SA, Aus, Arg)
England 6-10 (0-3, 1-3, 3-3, 2-0)
France 4-9 (2-5, 0-1, 1-1, 1-2)
Wales 3-9 (0-3, 0-2, 1-5, 2-0)
Scotland 0-11 (0-5, 0-2, 0-2, 0-2)
Ireland 2-8 (0-1, 0-0, 1-4, 1-3)
Italy 1-7 (0-5, 0-0, 0-1, 1-1)

Of the 24 head-to-head match-ups, Six Nations teams lead in only 2 cases: England v Argentina (2-0), Wales v Argentina (2-0).

All 6 Nations teams have losing records against Rugby Championship teams.

No Rugby Championship team has a losing record against 6 Nations teams.



Tier 2/3 victories over tier 1 nations throughout history:

1920s -
USA 8 - 0 France (09/05/1920)*
USA 17 -3 France (05/18/1924)
Germany 17-16 France (05/15/1927)

1930s
Germany 3 -0 France (03/27/1938)

1940s
Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) 10-8 New Zealand (07/27/1949)

1950s
Fiji 17-15 Australia (08/09/1952)
Fiji 18-16 Australia (06/26/1954)

1960s
Romania 11-5 France (06/05/1960)
Romania 3-0 France (11/11/1962)
Romania 15-14 France (12/01/1968)

1970s
Tonga 16-11 Australia (06/30/1973)
Romania 15-10 France (10/13/1974)
Romania 15-12 France (11/14/1976)
Fiji 25-21 British & Irish Lions (08/16/1977)*
Italy 19-6 Argentina (10/24/1978)

1980s
Romania 15-0 France (11/23/1980)
Romania 13-9 France (10/31/1982)
Romania 24-6 Wales (11/12/1983)
Romania 28-22 Scotland (05/12/1984)
Fiji 28-9 Argentina (05/24/1987)
Romania 15-9 Wales (12/10/1988)
Japan 28-24 Scotland (05/24/1989)*

1990s
Canada 15-6 Argentina (03/30/1990)
Romania 12-6 France (05/24/1990)
Canada 19-15 Argentina (06/16/1990)
Canada 24-19 Scotland* (05/25/1991)
Namibia 15-6 Ireland (07/20/1991)
Namibia 26-15 Ireland (07/27/1991)
Romania 18-12 Scotland (08/31/1991)
Samoa 16-13 Wales (10/06/1991)
Samoa 35-12 Argentina (10/13/1991)
Canada 15-12 England (05/29/1993)*
Canada 26-24 Wales (11/10/1993)
Italy 16-9 France (11/11/1993)*
Canada 18-16 France (06/04/1994)
Samoa 34-9 Wales (06/25/1994)
Italy 22-12 Ireland (05/06/1995)
Italy 31-25 Argentina (06/04/1995)
Samoa 40-25 Ireland (11/12/1996)
Italy 37-29 Ireland (01/04/1997)
Italy 40-32 France (03/22/1997)
Italy 37-22 Ireland (12/20/1997)
Italy 25-21 Scotland (01/24/1998)
Fiji 51-26 Scotland (05/26/1998)
Japan 44-29 Argentina (09/15/1998)
Italy 23-19 Argentina (11/07/1998)
Tonga 20-16 France (06/16/1999)
Samoa 38-31 Wales (10/14/1999)


2000s
Samoa 43-24 Italy (07/08/2000)
Fiji 43-9 Italy (07/15/2000)
Canada 22-17 Italy (11/11/2000)
Samoa 17-9 Italy (11/24/2001)
Canada 26-23 Scotland (06/15/2002)
Romania 25-24 Italy (06/26/2004)
Canada 22-15 Argentina (07/02/2005)
Samoa 28-12 Argentina (12/03/2005)
Fiji 29-18 Italy (06/17/2006)
Fiji 38-34 Wales (09/29/2007)
Pacific Islanders 25-17 Italy (11/22/2008)

2010s
Samoa 32-23 Australia (07/17/2011)
Tonga 19-14 France (10/01/2011)
Samoa 26-19 Wales (11/16/2012)
Tonga 21-15 Scotland (11/24/2012)
Samoa 27-17 Scotland (06/08/2013)
Samoa 39-10 Italy (06/15/2013)
Japan 23-8 Wales (06/15/2013)
Fiji 25-14 Italy (06/07/2014)
Samoa 15-0 Italy (06/14/2014)
Japan 26-23 Italy (06/21/2014)
Uruguay 30-26 Argentina (08/01/2015)*
Japan 34-32 South Africa (09/19/2015)

Very comprehensive. There have been similar posts on predecessor threads on the old boards I think.

I'm not sure I'd say France were first tier in the 20's or 30's though. Ditto Australia in the 50s (WWII nearly killed the amateur code there), Argentina until this Century or Italy ever.

Also, Rhodesia's win over New Zealand was not a test match. This was a mid-week tour match (played in quite trying circumstances apparently) and neither side awarded caps. The All Blacks team did feature some 1st XV players but was not full strength. (Do your asterisks denote matches only capped by one team?)

The Romanian team in the 1980s were real giant killers, and came close to upsetting the All Blacks in 1981 in a full test (at a time when NZ didn't award caps against the likes of Fiji etc). Had communism not fallen, and Romanian rugby not been patronised by the regime, Romania would have had a better claim to join the 5N than Italy at the time.

I'd be reticent to classify pre-70s Australia as a Tier 1 nation. They'd be roughly where Italy, Japan or the Pasifika teams would be now, that spot in between T1 and T2.

Lizard wrote:Very comprehensive. There have been similar posts on predecessor threads on the old boards I think.

I'm not sure I'd say France were first tier in the 20's or 30's though. Ditto Australia in the 50s (WWII nearly killed the amateur code there), Argentina until this Century or Italy ever.

Also, Rhodesia's win over New Zealand was not a test match. This was a mid-week tour match (played in quite trying circumstances apparently) and neither side awarded caps. The All Blacks team did feature some 1st XV players but was not full strength. (Do your asterisks denote matches only capped by one team?)

The Romanian team in the 1980s were real giant killers, and came close to upsetting the All Blacks in 1981 in a full test (at a time when NZ didn't award caps against the likes of Fiji etc). Had communism not fallen, and Romanian rugby not been patronised by the regime, Romania would have had a better claim to join the 5N than Italy at the time.

I understand the Zimbabwe Rugby Union has restroactively recognised all of Rhodesia's games against touring international teams as official tests. I believe they only managed two victories, the first against New Zealand (they also drew with them during the same tour), the second against Italy in 1973, by the score of 42-4 (a veritable thrashing in those days) - which is missing from the original list.

Otherwise, agree with most of that. There were unofficial talks of adding Romania to the 5 Nations after their string of victories over France, a shock win against Wales (still widely regarded as Europe's leading light in those days) and the 28-22 result v. Scotland - who were coming off a 5 Nations grandslam & yes, they gave the All Blacks a very solid work-out in 81.

The asterisks denote matches not regarded as full tests by either one or both teams. A lot of those games probably should've been tests, of course, but for the stuffiness of the hierarchy. NZ sent pretty much a full strength team to Fiji in 1974, for example, and only won by a point. But, of course, this was quickly forgotten, with the convenient excuse that it wasn't really a 'test match.'

Yes, even the Aussies over the early 70s were referred to as the Woeful Wallabies by the Kiwis, and the NZRFU actually considered dropping them from the agenda. Just a few years later, 1978, Australia would thrash the All Blacks in Auckland, Grant Cornelsen scoring 4 tries as they became the first team ever to reach 30 against NZ. Incidentally, Tonga scored 4 tries to 1 in their shock win over the Wallabies in 1973 - in Brisbane.

France really only became a force in the game after WWII. They had been banned for a while between World Wars due to professionalism. This spawned the FIRA competition, now known as the ENC, as well as rugby league in France. But in the late 50s they became the first nation ever to win a series in South Africa !!

Argentina were certainly on the brink of tier 1 status in the 70s, and by the end of the amateur era had either beaten or drawn with every major rugby playing nation in the world - with the exception of South Africa, who they had beaten 21-12 in Bloemfontein in 1982 while disguised as the 'South American Jaguars' to avoid political repurcussions. Their 18-3 thumping of the Wallabies in Brisbane in 1983 was nonetheless almost as stunning at the time as Japan's victory over the Boks' at last year's World Cup, and they got within a whisker of beating the All Blacks in 1985 when hulking number 8 Ernesto Ure drove to within inches of the try-line just seconds before the final whistle with the scores tied at 21. The key figure in all of these fixtures was, of course, flyhalf Hugo Porta. Argentina, like the Celtic nations, were left behind during the early years of professionalism, but I think it would be fair to say they have been tier 1 for as long as Australia has (ie since the late 70s).

Agreed, Italy has yet to justify its tier 1 status on the field.

against Italy in 1973, by the score of 42-4 (a veritable thrashing in those days) - which is missing from the original list.

Of course, Italy is not regarded as tier 1 prior to joining the 6 Nations in 2000. This explains why the above reversal against Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) is not included in the original list. In fact, if the list had regarded Italy as 'tier 1' from the outset, losses to Germany (regularly in the early days), the Czech Rep (twice), Portugal, Spain, the USSR, Romania (also regularly in the amateur era), Morocco (twice) and the Pacific Islands - including the Cook Islands in 1980 - would also have been included.

Namibia beat Italy twice in 1991 as well . . .

Still just 25 nations to have competed at the RWC after 8 tournament.

Most titles: NZ 3, Australia 2, SA 2, England 1

Finals: NZ 4, Australia 4, England 3, France 3, SA 2

3rd place: NZ 2, SA 2, Australia 1, France 1, Wales 1, Argentina 1

Semis: NZ 7, Australia 6, France 6, SA 4, England 4, Wales 2, Argentina 2, Scotland 1

Quarters: NZ 8, Australia 8, France 8, England 7, Scotland 7, SA 6, Ireland 6, Wales 5, Argentina 4, Samoa 2, Fiji 2, Canada 1

World Cups: NZ 8, Australia 8, England 8, France 8, Wales 8, Argentina 8, Scotland 8, Ireland 8, Canada 8, Japan 8, Italy 8, Romania 8, Fiji 7, Samoa 7, Tonga 7, USA 7, SA 6, Namibia 5, Georgia 4, Uruguay 3, Zimbabwe 2, Ivory Coast 1, Spain 1, Portugal 1, Russia 1

No team has ever done the Tri Nations/Rugby Championship-World Cup double. New Zealand won the 7th World Cup on the only occasion they entered the tournament without the Tri Nations trophy, and now they have won the 8th World Cup in the only year so far they have failed to win the Rugby Championship.

New Zealand the only team unbeaten in the pool stages. South Africa have dropped one pool game, Australia 2, France 3, England 4, Scotland 6, Ireland 7 and Wales 9.

Ireland have progressed from the group stages 7 times out of 8 but have never won at the knock-out stages - losing 6 Q-finals and a Q-final repechage

Japan the first team to win 3 games at the World Cup and not progress to the quarters.

USA now the least successful tier 2 team at the tournament with a total of just 3 wins - one behind both Japan and Georgia.

Since Richie McCaw's debut , the All Blacks have played just 5 tests without any of McCaw, Carter, Nonu, Conrad Smith or Mealamu taking the field. The overall record is played 5, won 3, drawn 1, lost 1 (i.e 70%, fairly respectable). Only one of matches didn't feature any of these five players in the match squad at all. Four of them were in 2002 when only McCaw had been capped but Holah was preferred to start.

17 November 2001: McCaw debuts
8 June 2002: 66 - 10 v Italy (McCaw unused off bench)
29 June 2002: 68 - 18 v Fiji
9 November 2002: 28 - 31 v England (Mealamu unused off bench)
16 November 2002: 20 - 20 v France (Mealamu unused off bench)
23 November 2002: Mealamu debuts
14 June 2003: Nonu debuts
21 June 2003: Carter debuts
13 November 2004: Smith debuts
14 November 2009: 20 - 6 v Italy (McCaw unused off bench)

All new Year 9 enrolments in New Zealand secondary schools were born after Richie McCaw's first test cap.

cashead wrote:All new Year 9 enrolments in New Zealand secondary schools were born after Richie McCaw's first test cap.

Sweet jesus. Make time stop.

Teams from major nations in Georgia

The following 6N/RC teams have played tests* in Georgia, against Georgia.

Argentina A/Jaguares (2 tests)
Emerging Ireland (2)
Emerging Italy (2)
South Africa A/President's XV (2)

Of these, Georgia beat Argentina A and Italy once each

*i.e. at least one team awarded caps, namely Georgia

Disgraceful, no tests for a team ranked higher than Italy, which won 2 games at last year's World Cup, and has just secured its 6th straight ENC title in front of 55 K home-fans in Tbilisi.

Today’s statistic:

Assuming that Liam Messam remains a 7s specialist and does not play any tests against Wales in June, and assuming that Dylan Hartley is not banned, injured or dropped for either Wales or the Aussie tour, then by the end of the June tours, old boys of Rotorua Boys High School will have won more caps for foreign test sides than for the All Blacks. That point might be reached even sooner if Teimana Harrison is elevated from the national training squad to pull on the red rose.

All Blacks RBHS Old Boys (caps):
Liam Messam (43)
Tom Donnelly (15)
Arthur Stone (9)
Trevor Berghan (3)
Alan McNaughton (3)
Craig Newby (3)
Neville Black (1)
Mike Delaney (1)

Total: 79


Poached RBHS Old Boys (nation caps) plus possibles:
Dylan Hartley (England 71)
Garrick Cowley (Samoa 4)
Teimana Harrison (England 0)
Richard Kingi (Australia 0 but played 1 tour game in 2009 and is still playing)

Total: 75

The current Welsh tour of NZ may see some records for Welshman v NZ in NZ equalled, if not beaten.

Any Welsh player who features in all 3 tests will match the mark for most tests, currently held by Stephen Jones and Jonathon Thomas (both toured in ’03 and ’10).

S Jones and J Thomas also share with many others, starting with the inaugural Welsh tour of 1969, the record of 2 starting caps. This record is almost certain to fall this month.

Another of Jones’ marks under threat is his tally of 11 points (1C, 2P, 1DG). Assuming Wales select the same goal-kicker in all three tests, you wouldn’t think an average of 4 points per test would be out of reach.

I would also be very surprised in this day and age if no-one joined the ranks of top Welsh try-scorers in NZ by matching the exploits of Keith Jarrett, Maurice Richards (both 1969), Jonathan Davies (1988) and Jamie Roberts (2010) by scoring one whole try all by themselves. Roberts of course is best placed to make the record his alone. (Although no doubt Davies will have plenty of advice for him on precisely how to do that.)

If the Welsh team as a whole can muster at least two test tries on tour, then the opportunity will exist to eclipse Jones and Mark Ring’s shared record of 1 conversion.

Jones’ solitary drop goal is the only one on record for Wales in NZ so that could be under threat.

Sterner stuff will be required to beat the record for penalty goals - Jones, Ring, Jarrett and Halfpenny each having slotted two.

Perhaps the most telling point to be made about Wales’ efforts in NZ to date is the fact that the names mentioned in the scoring records above include every single Welshman to score for his country against the All Blacks in New Zealand.

And now the reverse stats for All Blacks v Wales in NZ:

Carter, Mealamu and Thorn share the most caps, with 3. Carter and Mealamu started all 3, Thorn came off the bench in 1.

Obviously any current squad member could equal those marks. The most likely to overtake them are those surviving from the 2010, 2-test series:
Read 2 caps (2 starts)
O. Franks 2 (1)
Cruden 2 (0)
Whitelock 2 (0)
Kaino 1 (1)

Dan Carter amassed a rather startling 64 points in his 3 tests (3T, 11C, 9P), well clear of the fields (Fox is second with 34 points in 2 tests). It will take something pretty special to overtake that this year, especially as no-one is likely to wear 10 three times and all the candidates are having boot problems anyway. Cruden has a 5 point head start (1T), for all the good it will do him, leaving a 19.7 points average necessary to top Carter over three tests.

John Kirwan had the advantage of being on the wing in consecutive half-century maulings of the 1988 Welsh, notching up 6 tries in total (4 in the first test, 2 in the second). Terry Wright, the other wing in that series, bagged a further 4 (2 in each test) to hold second place. Again, Cruden is the only current player with a head start, and I would be surprised if he could pull off 5 or 6 tries in 2 or 3 tests. A fully-firing Savea might be an outside chance but that doesn’t seem to be on the cards.

The 1988 bloodbath handed Fox the record of 14 conversions. 14 All Black tries in the 3 tests this year is not entirely off the cards, but a high percentage conversion rate by one player probably is. No current player is off the mark in this respect, with Carter and Weepu taking the tee in 2010.

Carter’s 9 penalties could technically be beaten if the scores are close for long periods in each test. Like the conversions record, the likely rotation of relatively out-of-form goal kickers makes this unlikely. Again, no current players are yet on the score sheet.

The one scoring method where Wales outstrips NZ is in drop goals. While Welsh marksmen have slotted [], NZ has just the solitary effort by the great Fergie McCormick in 1969. The formally unfashionable droppy has had something of a revival in NZ although we’re yet to see if that attitude persists outside of RWCs. Still, if a match is in the balance in the last few minutes, it might be attempted although we generally go for the try even in extreme situations. Of the current squad, only Cruden has a test DG to his name.

To round it all off, 29 All Blacks have scored against Wales in NZ (8 in 1969, 10 in 1988, 5 in 2003 alone, 2 in both 2003 and 2010, and 4 in 2010)

I'm cheating with this, but the All Blacks are awesome in the last 20:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/ar ... d=11656894

Naiyaravoro's late try in Sydney means that England now hold the record for most points conceded in an away victory at 40.

The record was previously set by Australia 41 South Africa 39 Bloemfontein 2010.

It's also joint 3rd on the all time points conceded in victory with South Africa 46 - New Zealand 40, Johannesburg 2000

The two matches ahead are

Madagascar 57 - Namibia 54, Antananarive 2012 (after extra time, it was a 43 all draw at the whistle, which would also have been a record)
Argentina 50 - Wales 44, Tucuman 2004

Doing a little bit of research that Madagascar game was bonkers

Top 20 in points conceded in victory, 'best' per country rather than all time list.

Madagascar 54
Argentina 44
England 40
South Africa 40
Australia 39
Fiji 39
Zimbabwe 39
Czech Republic 38
Sri Lanka 38
British Virgin Islands 37
Hong Kong 37
New Zealand 37
Russia 37
Spain 37
Morocco 36
Thailand 36
Ireland 35
Namibia 35
United States of America 35
Wales 35

A quick one to kick this off again:

The 2002 New Zealand U17 Cricket Team featured more future All Blacks than future test cricketers.

Lizard wrote:A quick one to kick this off again:

The New Zealand U17 Cricket Team featured more future All Blacks than future test cricketers.

Why would you look that up? Why?

Go in then, who were they?

Len wrote:

Lizard wrote:A quick one to kick this off again:

The New Zealand U17 Cricket Team featured more future All Blacks than future test cricketers.

Why would you look that up? Why?

Go in then, who were they?

I came across the team list when Googling to check that Kieran Read played cricket for ND (see All Blacks squad thread). The list appeared to be devoid of Black Caps so I double-checked a couple (Devcich turned out to have played an ODI so I had to restrict the stat to tests).

I probably should have included the year (2002) in my initial post. It's now edited in.