Wingers

[Mikey Brown]

I wonder how much Eddie’s thoughts on the midfield formation were a consideration in this? A lot of sides try and fit anther playmaker (whatever the fuck that means) in at either 12/15. Not suggesting Daly is that exactly, but maybe it was a consideration if Eddie was eyeing up a Teo/Manu centre combo for the AIs.

People have wanted to look at backups for me at fullback for a long time, and Daly in particular, but the timing seemed odd. I feel I’m playing better now than I have done for a year or two. I guess EJ is just that stubborn.

[Puja]

I've no idea how we've learnt Daly can't play 15, we can see he's struggled but whether he comes good is a guess. I am however confident Brown isn't the answer to us being any good, whether Daly is the answer is at least a maybe

...really?

He's had 8 matches and 7 consecutive tests and has been consistently out of position, making basic errors in skills he's normally good at, and has been an active liability under the high ball to the extent that oppositions have been targetting him. How many more games do we need to give him to come good?

Puja

No idea. But when I can ask the same question of Brown we either take a punt of a talent who might come good or we take a punt on a steady but limited player. Myself I'd rather take the punt with the potential upside but I get others may pick more conservatively

We took the punt on the potential upside though, and there's been no signs of it paying out. Brown's hardly a punt either. He's a good, international quality player - not going to be the best in the world in his position, but certainly good enough not to be an obvious weak link.

Puja

[Digby]

...really?

He's had 8 matches and 7 consecutive tests and has been consistently out of position, making basic errors in skills he's normally good at, and has been an active liability under the high ball to the extent that oppositions have been targetting him. How many more games do we need to give him to come good?

Puja

No idea. But when I can ask the same question of Brown we either take a punt of a talent who might come good or we take a punt on a steady but limited player. Myself I'd rather take the punt with the potential upside but I get others may pick more conservatively

We took the punt on the potential upside though, and there's been no signs of it paying out. Brown's hardly a punt either. He's a good, international quality player - not going to be the best in the world in his position, but certainly good enough not to be an obvious weak link.

Puja

We don't really know everything about Daly when tv coverage of the fullback is mostly non existent, he could be doing much better than feared, though equally he could be worse, either way we have to allow not only is he learning but he's doing so with a moveable feast of winger selections who themselves have issues in defence, a lack of experience at times in this England side.

And given I've rarely thought Brown a worthwhile pick I'm not going to suddenly change as he closes on 40. However if people do want Brown they should imo address my main concern that he doesn't link play by selecting wingers who will, you get one of those in Daly, but not really in Watson, May, Nowell, Cockanasiga, Ashton and so on. So for me swapping Brown for Daly changes issues in the team more than improves the situation

[Scrumhead]

I think you’re reaching a little by suggesting the TV coverage of the fullback is a genuine factor in assessing Daly’s effectiveness at 15.

It most definitely covered the high balls he didn’t take and the acres of grass where he should have been.

Unfortunately for your other argument about linking play, the TV also captured him repeatedly failing to pass to players outside him - much like when Brown plays.

Ultimately, it’s swings and roundabouts. Daly offers more in attack, but Brown is far more solid in defence. DalyMs defence has been poor and Brown’s attack is decent. As it stands, Daly’s contribution to the attack hasn’t been enough to outweigh Brown’s overall contribution IMO.

[Mellsblue]

Not sure we saw much of Daly the link man. There were at least two obvious examples of him butchering obvious passes. Both were in the 13 channel, too, where it should come naturally to him. I think that having to play 15 muddled his thinking so much that it messed with the rest of his game. Bar that try against Oz he didn’t really offer too much in attack. Certainly not enough to counterbalance his weaknesses.

[Galfon]

From article in today's Times:
'Elliot Daly still sees himself as an outside centre and prefers to play No 13 for Wasps, despite his extended run as England’s first-choice full back.
..Daly enjoyed mixed fortunes in the autumn, showing signs of his inexperience, but he has not sought to further his education at No 15 on his return to club duty.
“Elliot wants to play No 13 and thinks he’s a No 13,” Dai Young, the Wasps director of rugby, said yesterday. “That’s Elliot’s view and he hasn’t said anything to me to change that opinion.”

A reluctant hero, F/back or Wing !

[Scrumhead]

Not sure we saw much of Daly the link man. There were at least two obvious examples of him butchering obvious passes. Both were in the 13 channel, too, where it should come naturally to him. I think that having to play 15 muddled his thinking so much that it messed with the rest of his game. Bar that try against Oz he didn’t really offer too much in attack. Certainly not enough to counterbalance his weaknesses.

Yep. That’s exactly what I was getting at.

The try against Australia was also in the 13 channel which is interesting.

[Oakboy]

From article in today's Times:
'Elliot Daly still sees himself as an outside centre and prefers to play No 13 for Wasps, despite his extended run as England’s first-choice full back.
..Daly enjoyed mixed fortunes in the autumn, showing signs of his inexperience, but he has not sought to further his education at No 15 on his return to club duty.
“Elliot wants to play No 13 and thinks he’s a No 13,” Dai Young, the Wasps director of rugby, said yesterday. “That’s Elliot’s view and he hasn’t said anything to me to change that opinion.”

A reluctant hero, F/back or Wing !

In a way that is consistent with what we see. At club level he can do the link bit at OC as well as show his gas in going for the line. At international level one place further out exposes his weaker aspects less but highlights his strengths, especially with licence to wander. OC for Wasps/wing for England is his future, IMO.

[Digby]

From article in today's Times:
'Elliot Daly still sees himself as an outside centre and prefers to play No 13 for Wasps, despite his extended run as England’s first-choice full back.
..Daly enjoyed mixed fortunes in the autumn, showing signs of his inexperience, but he has not sought to further his education at No 15 on his return to club duty.
“Elliot wants to play No 13 and thinks he’s a No 13,” Dai Young, the Wasps director of rugby, said yesterday. “That’s Elliot’s view and he hasn’t said anything to me to change that opinion.”

A reluctant hero, F/back or Wing !

If that's in today's Times that's a truly lazy piece of writing as I'm fairly confident it was in yesterday's too

[Digby]

I think you’re reaching a little by suggesting the TV coverage of the fullback is a genuine factor in assessing Daly’s effectiveness at 15.

It most definitely covered the high balls he didn’t take and the acres of grass where he should have been.

Unfortunately for your other argument about linking play, the TV also captured him repeatedly failing to pass to players outside him - much like when Brown plays.

Ultimately, it’s swings and roundabouts. Daly offers more in attack, but Brown is far more solid in defence. DalyMs defence has been poor and Brown’s attack is decent. As it stands, Daly’s contribution to the attack hasn’t been enough to outweigh Brown’s overall contribution IMO.

I'm in no way reaching around tv non coverage of fullbacks, if you can't see where they're stood nor where they're moving to, nor how they're controlling the back three unit it is inherently tricky to form an opinion on what they're doing

Daly did fail to link play a few times, but I'm happy it's a much stronger part of his game than Brown's, if you can find someone better again though I'm unlikely to complain with Daly going back to the wing

[Digby]

Not sure we saw much of Daly the link man. There were at least two obvious examples of him butchering obvious passes. Both were in the 13 channel, too, where it should come naturally to him. I think that having to play 15 muddled his thinking so much that it messed with the rest of his game. Bar that try against Oz he didn’t really offer too much in attack. Certainly not enough to counterbalance his weaknesses.

Yep. That’s exactly what I was getting at.

The try against Australia was also in the 13 channel which is interesting.

The fullback is normally going to come into the line inside or outside the 13

[Galfon]

If that's in today's Times that's a truly lazy piece of writing as I'm fairly confident it was in yesterday's too

used interweb source..
'December 4 2018, 12:01am, The Times'
there may be a lag, or laziness if you wish or just links to earlier articles....
Agree about Thorley as bolter#1-. he's looked dynamite in recent weeks.

[Puja]

I think you’re reaching a little by suggesting the TV coverage of the fullback is a genuine factor in assessing Daly’s effectiveness at 15.

It most definitely covered the high balls he didn’t take and the acres of grass where he should have been.

Unfortunately for your other argument about linking play, the TV also captured him repeatedly failing to pass to players outside him - much like when Brown plays.

Ultimately, it’s swings and roundabouts. Daly offers more in attack, but Brown is far more solid in defence. DalyMs defence has been poor and Brown’s attack is decent. As it stands, Daly’s contribution to the attack hasn’t been enough to outweigh Brown’s overall contribution IMO.

I'm in no way reaching around tv non coverage of fullbacks, if you can't see where they're stood nor where they're moving to, nor how they're controlling the back three unit it is inherently tricky to form an opinion on what they're doing

But you can see his ineptitude under the high ball, as well as his lack of any impact on the counterattack, along with his poor decision making with ball in hand.

I can get that you don't like Brown and want there to be a better alternative, but there comes a stage where you're flogging a dead horse. Whatever his skills or potential abilities, Daly has not shown them from 15 across 8 matches for England. We can't keep selecting someone on the basis of, "Well on paper he should be perfect!"

Puja

[fivepointer]

Daly has disappointed at fb. Theres no getting away from that. One could forgive some early teething problems but 8 games is quite a long run to establish yourself in a team/position.
It does leave a poser though, does Jones stick with him after investing so much game time in him?

[Puja]

Daly has disappointed at fb. Theres no getting away from that. One could forgive some early teething problems but 8 games is quite a long run to establish yourself in a team/position.
It does leave a poser though, does Jones stick with him after investing so much game time in him?

It will terrify me if he's picked against Ireland. Sexton will destroy him with garryowens.

Puja

[Digby]

I think you’re reaching a little by suggesting the TV coverage of the fullback is a genuine factor in assessing Daly’s effectiveness at 15.

It most definitely covered the high balls he didn’t take and the acres of grass where he should have been.

Unfortunately for your other argument about linking play, the TV also captured him repeatedly failing to pass to players outside him - much like when Brown plays.

Ultimately, it’s swings and roundabouts. Daly offers more in attack, but Brown is far more solid in defence. DalyMs defence has been poor and Brown’s attack is decent. As it stands, Daly’s contribution to the attack hasn’t been enough to outweigh Brown’s overall contribution IMO.

I'm in no way reaching around tv non coverage of fullbacks, if you can't see where they're stood nor where they're moving to, nor how they're controlling the back three unit it is inherently tricky to form an opinion on what they're doing

But you can see his ineptitude under the high ball, as well as his lack of any impact on the counterattack, along with his poor decision making with ball in hand.

I can get that you don't like Brown and want there to be a better alternative, but there comes a stage where you're flogging a dead horse. Whatever his skills or potential abilities, Daly has not shown them from 15 across 8 matches for England. We can't keep selecting someone on the basis of, "Well on paper he should be perfect!"

Puja

Twenty years of picking average talents like Hartley, Robshaw and Brown and still we seek the comfort blanket of supposed dependability

I'm happy to take a risk and fail in the pursuit of excellence

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m with Digby in this. I’d rather we stuck with Daly rather than revert back to Brown. I also agree that watching live and TV are very different when looking at players. Daly wasn’t great, in some aspects, most notably the high ball. People said the same after the Argentina red card, but he’s chased high balls very well otherwise. And yes I know chasing a kick and fielding one are very different. It is of course something he has to work on constantly, as Watson has done.

I also love the fact Coka is one dimensional because people have once seen him try to run over a defender rather than take off for the corner. A bad decision, no doubt, but singular. He’s inexperienced, but far from just a bosher.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm in no way reaching around tv non coverage of fullbacks, if you can't see where they're stood nor where they're moving to, nor how they're controlling the back three unit it is inherently tricky to form an opinion on what they're doing

But you can see his ineptitude under the high ball, as well as his lack of any impact on the counterattack, along with his poor decision making with ball in hand.

I can get that you don't like Brown and want there to be a better alternative, but there comes a stage where you're flogging a dead horse. Whatever his skills or potential abilities, Daly has not shown them from 15 across 8 matches for England. We can't keep selecting someone on the basis of, "Well on paper he should be perfect!"

Puja

Twenty years of picking average talents like Hartley, Robshaw and Brown and still we seek the comfort blanket of supposed dependability

I'm happy to take a risk and fail in the pursuit of excellence

Fail in the pursuit of excellence or fail in the pursuit of mediocrity. I’m with you on this one.

[Stom]

Just to wade in on the Daly debate. His mind looks a little scrambled to me.

And that usually happens when a player is not given clear and concise instructions. If he's constantly thinking about where to stand, where to run, where to pass, etc., he will constantly make mistakes. Like Finn in the cricket, for instance.

[fivepointer]

Something else to consider with Daly. He doesnt want to play FB. He prefers 13. He doesnt play FB for his club so wont be getting any experience there.
I'm not Browns biggest fan but at least he is a dedicated FB.
My preferred option is Watson at FB, who does play in the back 3 and will probably play FB for his club.

[Raggs]

Daly is also dealing with Mitchells system, which puts a lot more pressure on the fullback. To be working mostly alone, as an inexperienced fullback, facing international sides, will expose most at times, especially someone who hasn't played there regularly for years.

[Scrumhead]

Not sure we saw much of Daly the link man. There were at least two obvious examples of him butchering obvious passes. Both were in the 13 channel, too, where it should come naturally to him. I think that having to play 15 muddled his thinking so much that it messed with the rest of his game. Bar that try against Oz he didn’t really offer too much in attack. Certainly not enough to counterbalance his weaknesses.

Yep. That’s exactly what I was getting at.

The try against Australia was also in the 13 channel which is interesting.

The fullback is normally going to come into the line inside or outside the 13

Fair point. Although I expected to see more of that which we really didn’t.

It’s not that I think Brown is excellent. I was all for experimenting with Daly as I, like most others, could see the potential for him being a superior option but after a significant run in the short, I feel like we can confidently say Daly is better on the wing which leaves Brown as our only fit, credible option at fullback.

Watson could end up being the answer, but he needs to get fit and stay fit first and if he’s not there for the 6 Nations, that leaves us no time to try it.

[padprop]

Don’t watch much Worcester but has Pennell dropped off significantly from being the form fullback in 2014? Or just a victim of staying at a low performing club

[Mellsblue]

I’d rather have world class wing Daly with Brown at fullback, than mediocre fullback Daly and A N Other on the wing. That would change if Watson comes back like his pre-injury self, but in that scenario I’d rather Watson at fb anyway.

[Raggs]

I never really felt that Daly would be an effective Le Roux type to be honest. He can step in at 10 well enough, but that's acting as a pivot more than someone to link between the 10 and the wings, which is what Le Roux does so well. Daly has got good hands, but not the same sort of vision as a Le Roux or Goode on that front.

Watson is no better. Brown is only a bit worse even then.

Woodward is slightly better, but still prefers to try himself.

Pennell was probably the one that we needed, but he chose to get relegated and put himself out the picture.