Europe Out or In?

[Tre]

The 'Mericans want us to stay in. That worries me slightly more than the cockwombles.

I want the exact opposite of anything and everything Farage wants. This trumps everything else.

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I'll see your Farage and raise you....

Ha. I quite like him as it goes.

[UKHamlet]

I'm never really sure why people set so much store by "national sovereignty". The whole idea of a nation state and the modern concept of sovereignty is only about as old as the motor car.

Personally, I'd like to see a move to Neo-feudalism.

The nation state might not be the concept it once was, but I do like the idea of moving democracy closer to the people. Europe is too remote t be that responsive.

Which is an argument for greater devolution, but there are some things that are better done in the macro environment like armies, economics, trade, social policy, foreign policy and so on, where the bigger the better really is a thing. Things like health, education, infrastructure and so on are better managed on a local basis. Funding is the real issue - who pays for what? I'm of the view that we should make the Germans pay for everything because they have more dosh than anyone else. It's socialism on an international scale. International Socialism, if you like. They'll have some familiarity with that.

[Lizard]

I'm never really sure why people set so much store by "national sovereignty". The whole idea of a nation state and the modern concept of sovereignty is only about as old as the motor car.

Personally, I'd like to see a move to Neo-feudalism.

The nation state might not be the concept it once was, but I do like the idea of moving democracy closer to the people. Europe is too remote t be that responsive.

Remote? It's right next door! I am constantly amazed at how British people seem to believe that Europe is far away (and that the UK is a big place).

It's quicker and easier to get to Paris from London than to get to Edinburgh. Plenty of reasonably successful political entities cope just fine with genuine, actual remoteness. The biggest distance between EU capitals is probably the 2950km between Helsinki and Madrid. The biggest distance between Aussie state capitals is 3604km (in a straight line - far more if you are made enough to drive). In the US its even more - 4873km (Juneau, Alaska to Tallahassee, Florida). The ditsy little English Channel is hardly a mighty ocean to be crossed and is certainly no worse than what the archipelago of Japan calmly deals with (or even the UK's separation by the Irish Sea). There are six sovereign states larger than the EU in area.

There are certainly some rational arguments against the UK being part of the EU but the tyranny of distance ain't one of them.

[Sandydragon]

I'm never really sure why people set so much store by "national sovereignty". The whole idea of a nation state and the modern concept of sovereignty is only about as old as the motor car.

Personally, I'd like to see a move to Neo-feudalism.

The nation state might not be the concept it once was, but I do like the idea of moving democracy closer to the people. Europe is too remote t be that responsive.

Remote? It's right next door! I am constantly amazed at how British people seem to believe that Europe is far away (and that the UK is a big place).

It's quicker and easier to get to Paris from London than to get to Edinburgh. Plenty of reasonably successful political entities cope just fine with genuine, actual remoteness. The biggest distance between EU capitals is probably the 2950km between Helsinki and Madrid. The biggest distance between Aussie state capitals is 3604km (in a straight line - far more if you are made enough to drive). In the US its even more - 4873km (Juneau, Alaska to Tallahassee, Florida). The ditsy little English Channel is hardly a mighty ocean to be crossed and is certainly no worse than what the archipelago of Japan calmly deals with (or even the UK's separation by the Irish Sea). There are six sovereign states larger than the EU in area.

There are certainly some rational arguments against the UK being part of the EU but the tyranny of distance ain't one of them.

Personally I think culture and shared history count for more than distance. Unlike your Aistralian example, there is no shared culture or language across Europe. I'm all for a free trade zone, but not the dissolution of sovereignty. As it stands, we have entered too much power at Westminster.

[Bob]

I don't care

[Sandydragon]

I'm never really sure why people set so much store by "national sovereignty". The whole idea of a nation state and the modern concept of sovereignty is only about as old as the motor car.

Personally, I'd like to see a move to Neo-feudalism.

The nation state might not be the concept it once was, but I do like the idea of moving democracy closer to the people. Europe is too remote t be that responsive.

Which is an argument for greater devolution, but there are some things that are better done in the macro environment like armies, economics, trade, social policy, foreign policy and so on, where the bigger the better really is a thing. Things like health, education, infrastructure and so on are better managed on a local basis. Funding is the real issue - who pays for what? I'm of the view that we should make the Germans pay for everything because they have more dosh than anyone else. It's socialism on an international scale. International Socialism, if you like. They'll have some familiarity with that.

Militaries are done best at national level. At an international level they are far less effective. Language and culture are both important. Anyone who has spent time with NATO or the UN will see that for themselves. You can also have large scale economics without the associated political union; is anyone seriously suggesting the the UK should join the Euro?

Even at foreign policy it's hard to coordinate a joint response covering dozens of individual countries. What's important to Germany isn't important to the UK. And no one really cares what Greece is worried about.

A free trade zone and defence alliance can accomplish much of your list, whilst leaving each country to have politicians who are completely accountable to their electorate.

[UKHamlet]

The nation state might not be the concept it once was, but I do like the idea of moving democracy closer to the people. Europe is too remote t be that responsive.

Which is an argument for greater devolution, but there are some things that are better done in the macro environment like armies, economics, trade, social policy, foreign policy and so on, where the bigger the better really is a thing. Things like health, education, infrastructure and so on are better managed on a local basis. Funding is the real issue - who pays for what? I'm of the view that we should make the Germans pay for everything because they have more dosh than anyone else. It's socialism on an international scale. International Socialism, if you like. They'll have some familiarity with that.

Militaries are done best at national level. At an international level they are far less effective. Language and culture are both important. Anyone who has spent time with NATO or the UN will see that for themselves. You can also have large scale economics without the associated political union; is anyone seriously suggesting the the UK should join the Euro?

Even at foreign policy it's hard to coordinate a joint response covering dozens of individual countries. What's important to Germany isn't important to the UK. And no one really cares what Greece is worried about.

A free trade zone and defence alliance can accomplish much of your list, whilst leaving each country to have politicians who are completely accountable to their electorate.

Militaries might be done best at national level, but that's only because they retain national characteristics. Create a European army and have European command and control.

The only real reason for not joining the Euro is that it has been done all arse about backwards. They should have achieved political and economic union before implementing the Euro, not the other way around.

Foreign policy is only important in the European dimension these days. Britain doesn't have a foreign policy, it has a squeak.

A free trade zone will not offer the really important stuff like worker's and human rights, consumer protection and so on. Free trade is the least of our worries, protecting people from the free traders is the most important aspect of the EU.

[Sandydragon]

Which is an argument for greater devolution, but there are some things that are better done in the macro environment like armies, economics, trade, social policy, foreign policy and so on, where the bigger the better really is a thing. Things like health, education, infrastructure and so on are better managed on a local basis. Funding is the real issue - who pays for what? I'm of the view that we should make the Germans pay for everything because they have more dosh than anyone else. It's socialism on an international scale. International Socialism, if you like. They'll have some familiarity with that.

Militaries are done best at national level. At an international level they are far less effective. Language and culture are both important. Anyone who has spent time with NATO or the UN will see that for themselves. You can also have large scale economics without the associated political union; is anyone seriously suggesting the the UK should join the Euro?

Even at foreign policy it's hard to coordinate a joint response covering dozens of individual countries. What's important to Germany isn't important to the UK. And no one really cares what Greece is worried about.

A free trade zone and defence alliance can accomplish much of your list, whilst leaving each country to have politicians who are completely accountable to their electorate.

Militaries might be done best at national level, but that's only because they retain national characteristics. Create a European army and have European command and control.

The only real reason for not joining the Euro is that it has been done all arse about backwards. They should have achieved political and economic union before implementing the Euro, not the other way around.

Foreign policy is only important in the European dimension these days. Britain doesn't have a foreign policy, it has a squeak.

A free trade zone will not offer the really important stuff like worker's and human rights, consumer protection and so on. Free trade is the least of our worries, protecting people from the free traders is the most important aspect of the EU.

Create an euro army with euro command and control. Not that easy mate. Even getting common ammunition across NATO was a chore, let alone common language, training, equipment and doctrine.

I also disagree about britains foreign policy voice, it's stronger than you give i credit for. Being a permanent member of the security council helps. But again,the key issue with an European foreign policy is that the different nation states all have differing priorities. Would Czech voters be happy with Czech troops fighting in central Africa to support France's interests? Would Germans help us keep the Falklands? And all of that is nonsense with out the US to provide support.

We also managed just fine with workers rights before the EU, there's no reason to conclude that all will end because we leave.

[UKHamlet]

Nothing is easy when you want positive change, Sandy. The thing is, it needs to be done, because if we don't we will find ourselves left behind.

As for foreign policy, it may be strong now, but it is unlikely to remain so if we step outside Europe and our permanent membership of the security council is already under threat.

As for worker rights - they were being eroded by successive governments elected by a small number of bigots in the shires, the South and home counties. Admittedly because of the large number of people who can't be bothered to vote, but to try to say that everything was okay, is absolutely untrue.

[OptimisticJock]

I want the exact opposite of anything and everything Farage wants. This trumps everything else.

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I'll see your Farage and raise you....

Ha. I quite like him as it goes.

He's a good politician and can argue most out of the arena.

[OptimisticJock]

Nothing is easy when you want positive change, Sandy. The thing is, it needs to be done, because if we don't we will find ourselves left behind.

As for foreign policy, it may be strong now, but it is unlikely to remain so if we step outside Europe and our permanent membership of the security council is already under threat.

As for worker rights - they were being eroded by successive governments elected by a small number of bigots in the shires, the South and home counties. Admittedly because of the large number of people who can't be bothered to vote, but to try to say that everything was okay, is absolutely untrue.

It always makes me queasy agreeing with the monkey but he's right on the military front. Part of the reason the ANA/ANP are so useless is the different languages and tribal roots (I'm not sure I want to say ethnicities) that they have to work with.

Close integration with allies is the way to do it. We still retain our own forces for worst case scenario. Not to mention the amount of egos you'd have to overcome.

[Zhivago]

Given the fact that i'm living in the EU, I'll be voting for us to stay in. It makes life very complicated for me if we exit.

[welshsaint]

In Out. In/Out........I'm changing on a more or less daily basis.

[Billyfish]

So we pull out of Europe and lose all the benefits of being a member state - what do we get in return?

• Sovereignty - the right of Tories asshats to plunder the country's family silver to give their rich mates a tax cut, even though barely anyone voted for them.
  The right of the rich to make everyone's life a fecking misery, just so they can have another Yquem flavoured cock lube.
  The absolute certainty that the Germans and the French will go out of their way to make life difficult for us in terms of trade.
  Complete and utter decline as a world economic force as the Euro-zone powers past us like whippet bitch with a firework up its reccy.
  Having to go cap in hand to the yanks for just about everything.
  The Belgians laughing at us, because we're poor and can't afford their chocolate.

I'm undecided.

As far as trade goes, I'm not sure it will make that much of a difference either. Money tends to find the shortest route between two points, if we are the least expensive/best option the Germans and French and all shall continue buying. Unless their governments deliberately impose an embargo on our goods and services, something their own businesses would likely rail against.

Agree about the chocolate however, that is a worry.

[Stones of granite]

So we pull out of Europe and lose all the benefits of being a member state - what do we get in return?

• Sovereignty - the right of Tories asshats to plunder the country's family silver to give their rich mates a tax cut, even though barely anyone voted for them.
  The right of the rich to make everyone's life a fecking misery, just so they can have another Yquem flavoured cock lube.
  The absolute certainty that the Germans and the French will go out of their way to make life difficult for us in terms of trade.
  Complete and utter decline as a world economic force as the Euro-zone powers past us like whippet bitch with a firework up its reccy.
  Having to go cap in hand to the yanks for just about everything.
  The Belgians laughing at us, because we're poor and can't afford their chocolate.

I'm undecided.

As far as trade goes, I'm not sure it will make that much of a difference either. Money tends to find the shortest route between two points, if we are the least expensive/best option the Germans and French and all shall continue buying. Unless their governments deliberately impose an embargo on our goods and services, something their own businesses would likely rail against.

Agree about the chocolate however, that is a worry.

Fair
Pint, but being outside of a trade zone makes trade with it more expensive. Years ago before Swizerland negotiated it's way in to the trading block, without actually joining the EU (a master stroke in my view), I worked there and spent a lot of time and energy getting kit moved across borders.

[Zhivago]

Which is an argument for greater devolution, but there are some things that are better done in the macro environment like armies, economics, trade, social policy, foreign policy and so on, where the bigger the better really is a thing. Things like health, education, infrastructure and so on are better managed on a local basis. Funding is the real issue - who pays for what? I'm of the view that we should make the Germans pay for everything because they have more dosh than anyone else. It's socialism on an international scale. International Socialism, if you like. They'll have some familiarity with that.

Militaries are done best at national level. At an international level they are far less effective. Language and culture are both important. Anyone who has spent time with NATO or the UN will see that for themselves. You can also have large scale economics without the associated political union; is anyone seriously suggesting the the UK should join the Euro?

Even at foreign policy it's hard to coordinate a joint response covering dozens of individual countries. What's important to Germany isn't important to the UK. And no one really cares what Greece is worried about.

A free trade zone and defence alliance can accomplish much of your list, whilst leaving each country to have politicians who are completely accountable to their electorate.

Militaries might be done best at national level, but that's only because they retain national characteristics. Create a European army and have European command and control.

The only real reason for not joining the Euro is that it has been done all arse about backwards. They should have achieved political and economic union before implementing the Euro, not the other way around.

Foreign policy is only important in the European dimension these days. Britain doesn't have a foreign policy, it has a squeak.

A free trade zone will not offer the really important stuff like worker's and human rights, consumer protection and so on. Free trade is the least of our worries, protecting people from the free traders is the most important aspect of the EU.

European army is a scary idea. I would never be in favour. It would create a monopoly of force over all of Europe in the hands of antidemocratic EU structures which are in dire need of reform.

[UKHamlet]

European army is a scary idea. I would never be in favour. It would create a monopoly of force over all of Europe in the hands of antidemocratic EU structures which are in dire need of reform.

Obviously, EU structures need reform to bring them under democratic control, but largely I'm in favour of removing control of the Army from national governments.

[Zhivago]

European army is a scary idea. I would never be in favour. It would create a monopoly of force over all of Europe in the hands of antidemocratic EU structures which are in dire need of reform.

Obviously, EU structures need reform to bring them under democratic control, but largely I'm in favour of removing control of the Army from national governments.

Good heavens, why on earth would you want to do that?

[glamorganmorgan]

In out in out shake it all about

We do the Euro Cokey and we turn around

that's what it all about.


I will vote to stay in because we have benefited greatly from being in, but i am worried by the TTIP agreement

[Stones of granite]

In out in out shake it all about

We do the Euro Cokey and we turn around

that's what it all about.


I will vote to stay in because we have benefited greatly from being in, but i am worried by the TTIP agreement

Do you really think that leaving the EU would protect UK from TTIP? I'm pretty sure that there would be a scramble by the Government to sign up to as many bilateral trade agreements as they could physically manage, and that would include TTIP or something possibly even worse.

[glamorganmorgan]

In out in out shake it all about

We do the Euro Cokey and we turn around

that's what it all about.


I will vote to stay in because we have benefited greatly from being in, but i am worried by the TTIP agreement

Do you really think that leaving the EU would protect UK from TTIP? I'm pretty sure that there would be a scramble by the Government to sign up to as many bilateral trade agreements as they could physically manage, and that would include TTIP or something possibly even worse.

I didn't say that I would vote no if we got TTIP. I would just vote against it if i could

[Donny osmond]

1. I'm not patriotic, couldn't care less about calling myself Scottish, British or European. In or out... meh

2. The idea that a parliament based in Brussels can oversee a set of laws/protocols that effectively govern all the disparate cultures and regions of Europe, when individual country parliaments can barely do the same for their much smaller regions I find laughable. In or out... Out

3. The idea of putting up trade barriers with our closest friends, allies and trading partners seems daft. In or out... In

4. If the big powers in Europe are going to take the huff and marginalize us for leaving, and its hard to see that they aren't, what's the point in alienating our closest friends etc? In or out... In.

Can I be arsed carrying on with this? No.

Do on balance, in. But really, DGAF

[Lizard]

Historically speaking, the EU will eventually fall apart sooner or later, as all other forms of European integration have (Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon's Empire, Third Reich etc etc. Taking the long view, Britain being in or out of the EU at various times will be seen as fairly irrelevant.

[OptimisticJock]

1. I'm not patriotic, couldn't care less about calling myself Scottish, British or European. In or out... meh

2. The idea that a parliament based in Brussels can oversee a set of laws/protocols that effectively govern all the disparate cultures and regions of Europe, when individual country parliaments can barely do the same for their much smaller regions I find laughable. In or out... Out

3. The idea of putting up trade barriers with our closest friends, allies and trading partners seems daft. In or out... In

4. If the big powers in Europe are going to take the huff and marginalize us for leaving, and its hard to see that they aren't, what's the point in alienating our closest friends etc? In or out... In.

Can I be arsed carrying on with this? No.

Do on balance, in. But really, DGAF

Friends is a poor choice or word imo. They want to get as much out of us as possible

[Donny osmond]

1. I'm not patriotic, couldn't care less about calling myself Scottish, British or European. In or out... meh

2. The idea that a parliament based in Brussels can oversee a set of laws/protocols that effectively govern all the disparate cultures and regions of Europe, when individual country parliaments can barely do the same for their much smaller regions I find laughable. In or out... Out

3. The idea of putting up trade barriers with our closest friends, allies and trading partners seems daft. In or out... In

4. If the big powers in Europe are going to take the huff and marginalize us for leaving, and its hard to see that they aren't, what's the point in alienating our closest friends etc? In or out... In.

Can I be arsed carrying on with this? No.

Do on balance, in. But really, DGAF

Friends is a poor choice or word imo. They want to get as much out of us as possible

Fair point. I'm not naive enough to think that friendship between countries exists in the same way as between people. On the flip side, a prosperous EU helps the UK, and vice versa, so from that point of view we want the best for each other, which could be seen as friendship, in a way, if you squint a bit...

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