RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote:

jngf wrote:

Tom Moore wrote: Rodber always struck me as a bit like Haskell-strong and powerful but not the best rugby brain (I think it was him who gave away a pointless penalty that lead to the Scott Gibbs try in 1999. However, I'm still too traumatised by that to rewatch and find out.)
Clarke was excellent for 2 or 3 years, superb on the 93 Lions tour, then signed for Richmond in Division 2 and just seemed to fade away.

Interesting to review these two, I thought Rodber and Clarke at their peak (around 95?) were essentially big, athletic blindsides, who were good tacklers, good back row jumpers, quick for their size and could carry. I think both looked less effective when moved to other positions so Rodber was an ok lock, and an ok no.8 - but not imo spectacular in either position - though at lock he did encourage his partner lock MJ to carry the ball more - ditto Clarke was an ok no.8 and a 'makeshift 7' who did his best in the latter position though it was a big ask to move him there (Crazy Jack Rowell days of big is best)!

When Dallagio emerged on the scene, after again playing some games as another 'makeshift 7' he moved to 6 and became brilliant at it, surpassing Rodber and Clarke- in fact I'd go as far as saying the explosive, carrying 6 Dallagio of 97' was a match at 6 for both Teague and and Richard Hill (backrow) at their own respective peaks as 6s.

Peak Rodber was the Lions 97...immense defensive performance.

Also an immense offensive performance judging by the punches he was delivering

fivepointer wrote:Just on Bath, DeGlanville had the caps that should have gone to Simon Halliday, a far superior player. Nigel Redman deserved more caps and Jon Hall was definitely shortchanged. Dawe was incredibly unlucky to be behind Moore, who was consistently excellent and durable.
Dooley and Ackford were an outstanding pairing. Dooley got more caps and played over a longer period but Ackford came late (he debuted at 30 years old!) and was a top player.
A couple of Bristol players deserve a mention. Derek Eves was one of the best players never to get a cap, and Paul Hull deserved a lot more than he got.

Eves and Hull - definitley.

Ian Hunter only got 7 caps.

Tom Moore wrote:

NorthWestRugby wrote:

jngf wrote:Andy Robinson had a purple patch as England openside from 88 through 89 (voted European player of the year) - but the 89 Lions tour marked a pause in his test career until a shock comeback in 95’. Late 89’ Peter Winterbottom returned as the starting 7. Two of the best open sides ever to play for England albeit with differing styles.

In mid 90s Steve Ojomoh and Chris Sheasby both merited more caps at no.8 imo

Yeah I remember Ojomoh and Sheasby being held in high regard here.

A few I'm looking for opinions on:

Dooley
Ackford
Rodber
Ben Clarke
Ubogu
Brian Moore
Richard Hill (scrum half)
De Glanville
Stimpson

Purely my opinions:

Ackford was sensational for the three seasons he played, and retired two years too early.
Brian Moore was excellent, and one of the few hooker who did both the hooker job and the round the paddock bit just as well.
De Glanville is probably the luckiest man ever to captain England, if it isn't Steve Borthwick.
I liked Richard Hill, thought he had far better scrum half basics than Dewi Morris. Would probably have had a lot more caps had he not incited the entire forward pack to commit GBH in Cardiff in 1987.
Rodber always struck me as a bit like Haskell-strong and powerful but not the best rugby brain (I think it was him who gave away a pointless penalty that lead to the Scott Gibbs try in 1999. However, I'm still too traumatised by that to rewatch and find out.)
Clarke was excellent for 2 or 3 years, superb on the 93 Lions tour, then signed for Richmond in Division 2 and just seemed to fade away.

Richard Hill 9 - a hero in my eyes - for leading the Battle of Cardiff.
In the context of how the game was played then, how England were viewed character wise - especially by Wales at the time - it was much needed and correct. It effectively knackered his test career - but his.....legacy remains...
IMO it heralded the real beginning of the modern era for England - The Cooke/Carling regime and the Autumn game against Australia where England seemed to discover they could pass and run......Andy Harriman and all that.

richy678 wrote:

Tom Moore wrote:

NorthWestRugby wrote: Yeah I remember Ojomoh and Sheasby being held in high regard here.

A few I'm looking for opinions on:

Dooley
Ackford
Rodber
Ben Clarke
Ubogu
Brian Moore
Richard Hill (scrum half)
De Glanville
Stimpson

Purely my opinions:

Ackford was sensational for the three seasons he played, and retired two years too early.
Brian Moore was excellent, and one of the few hooker who did both the hooker job and the round the paddock bit just as well.
De Glanville is probably the luckiest man ever to captain England, if it isn't Steve Borthwick.
I liked Richard Hill, thought he had far better scrum half basics than Dewi Morris. Would probably have had a lot more caps had he not incited the entire forward pack to commit GBH in Cardiff in 1987.
Rodber always struck me as a bit like Haskell-strong and powerful but not the best rugby brain (I think it was him who gave away a pointless penalty that lead to the Scott Gibbs try in 1999. However, I'm still too traumatised by that to rewatch and find out.)
Clarke was excellent for 2 or 3 years, superb on the 93 Lions tour, then signed for Richmond in Division 2 and just seemed to fade away.

Richard Hill 9 - a hero in my eyes - for leading the Battle of Cardiff.
In the context of how the game was played then, how England were viewed character wise - especially by Wales at the time - it was much needed and correct. It effectively knackered his test career - but his.....legacy remains...
IMO it heralded the real beginning of the modern era for England - The Cooke/Carling regime and the Autumn game against Australia where England seemed to discover they could pass and run......Andy Harriman and all that.

Agree entirely, just a shame he copped the punishment he did.

Always felt sorry for Harriman, didn't do anything wrong in that game and should've got another chance. Not seen again until the 1993 World Cup Sevens when he destroyed Campese.

'Highlights' of the battle of Cardiff:

A few thoughts:
- it looks like a different world: different rules, smaller players, fans in ordinary clothes.
- refs never had a clue.
- Scrums are waaaaaay quicker.
- Impressively hard to get sent off back then (Davies' elbow to Andrew's face being awfully blatant).
- I have no idea what the ruck rules are.

You've got to start with Bill B's GS effort in 80.
First time in memory Eng approached matches with any sort of preparation and expected dominance up front.
Getting thrashed in Paris before then was a ritual.
Making Carling skip at 22 later on turned out to be a masterstroke - as a player he ran through opposing lines and passed slickly, which was odd.OT day v Oz, with the 2nd half blitz was a real blast-off for the team.
Underwood was a rare talent and true pro in a pre-Pro era.The surprise 93 sevens winning team in Embra fielded Rodber, Dayglo, Dawson, Harriman, Hopley, Sheasby and a few others.This was a rare group that took things to another level.
Deano was freaky in terms of natural strength & game awareness, but fell out of favour a few times due to pace.
Hill (s/h) looked the part but blew it as skip/chief belligerent.
Ubogu was mobile & powerful but can't recall scrum dominance.
Clarke never quite delivered consistently - not sure if selection, injury or skill-set.
Players who apart from injury could have gone onto greater things: Melville, Hall, Hopley.
Massive list of Ordinary Joes in this era reflecting quite a shallow elite pool pre-95.Redman was unlucky.

richy678 wrote:Ian Hunter only got 7 caps.

Quality but injury prone.

Mr Mwenda wrote: - refs never had a clue..
- Impressively hard to get sent off back then..

qed Buck 'I was provoked' Shelford .
HIA ?...magic sponge will do.

Sure,Dooley was a thug but you needed thugs then and he was much better at being a thug than, say, Danny Grewcock. It was great that someone playing for PGH could play for England. These days it seems you can't even do that from the Championship even if it is for potentially only one season.
I always thought Hill (9) had a lovely quick, flat pass and any of the England 9's in the frame these days could learn a bit in that respect from him.

Mellsblue wrote:

richy678 wrote:Ian Hunter only got 7 caps.

Quality but injury prone.

I remember Hunter scoring a try in Paris when Rob Andrew's penalty attempt came off the right post and Hunter, dutifully following up, caught it and scored. At the post-match interview the two were congratulated and Andrew said "Of course, it was an outrageous fluke ... I was aiming for the left post."

onlynameleft wrote:Sure,Dooley was a thug but you needed thugs then and he was much better at being a thug than, say, Danny Grewcock. It was great that someone playing for PGH could play for England. These days it seems you can't even do that from the Championship even if it is for potentially only one season.
I always thought Hill (9) had a lovely quick, flat pass and any of the England 9's in the frame these days could learn a bit in that respect from him.

I remember thinking Hill was a step up from Dewi Morris who wasn't very good at distributing the ball at all.

Dooley was an old school enforcer. Sure, he could mix it as he did have a mean streak but he played very well for England over 8 years. He got picked off the back of playing well in the old divisional championship. Preston was hardly a top club.
Richard Hill had a lovely pass but his running game wasnt the best.

fivepointer wrote:Dooley was an old school enforcer. Sure, he could mix it as he did have a mean streak but he played very well for England over 8 years. He got picked off the back of playing well in the old divisional championship. Preston was hardly a top club.
Richard Hill had a lovely pass but his running game wasnt the best.

I think I am right in saying that Dooley was a police constable and Ackford a police inspector. If so, it must have been an interesting partnership.

Galfon wrote:You've got to start with Bill B's GS effort in 80.
First time in memory Eng approached matches with any sort of preparation and expected dominance up front.
Getting thrashed in Paris before then was a ritual.
Making Carling skip at 22 later on turned out to be a masterstroke - as a player he ran through opposing lines and passed slickly, which was odd.OT day v Oz, with the 2nd half blitz was a real blast-off for the team.
Underwood was a rare talent and true pro in a pre-Pro era.The surprise 93 sevens winning team in Embra fielded Rodber, Dayglo, Dawson, Harriman, Hopley, Sheasby and a few others.This was a rare group that took things to another level.
Deano was freaky in terms of natural strength & game awareness, but fell out of favour a few times due to pace.
Hill (s/h) looked the part but blew it as skip/chief belligerent.
Ubogu was mobile & powerful but can't recall scrum dominance.
Clarke never quite delivered consistently - not sure if selection, injury or skill-set.
Players who apart from injury could have gone onto greater things: Melville, Hall, Hopley.
Massive list of Ordinary Joes in this era reflecting quite a shallow elite pool pre-95.Redman was unlucky.

Thats pretty concise.
I also agree that before professionalism really got going in English rugby - between 20 and 15 years ago, an elite player pool was shallow.

We had a naturally gifted hooker in Cov called Steve Brain - also went to Rugby Lions. He got a few England caps and immediately preceded Brian Moores era. Moore mentions him in one of his books that he felt Brain was very talented and very strong and a threat to him, but Brain wasn't prepared to buy into the (professional) training standards and fitness/diet plans that were just in their infancy, Moore felt that was his angle to make the England 2 shirt his and embraced the training etc as his advantage,

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Dooley was an old school enforcer. Sure, he could mix it as he did have a mean streak but he played very well for England over 8 years. He got picked off the back of playing well in the old divisional championship. Preston was hardly a top club.
Richard Hill had a lovely pass but his running game wasnt the best.

I think I am right in saying that Dooley was a police constable and Ackford a police inspector. If so, it must have been an interesting partnership.

Yes. There's an old story about the day Ackford got floored by Federico Mendez, Dooley bent down as he lay on the turf and said "you can tell which one of us works behind a f88king desk can't you?'

Dean Richards was a constable too and, I think, Nigel Heslop. I expect ranks got left behind on the pitch.

onlynameleft wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Dooley was an old school enforcer. Sure, he could mix it as he did have a mean streak but he played very well for England over 8 years. He got picked off the back of playing well in the old divisional championship. Preston was hardly a top club.
Richard Hill had a lovely pass but his running game wasnt the best.

I think I am right in saying that Dooley was a police constable and Ackford a police inspector. If so, it must have been an interesting partnership.

Yes. There's an old story about the day Ackford got floored by Federico Mendez, Dooley bent down as he lay on the turf and said "you can tell which one of us works behind a f88king desk can't you?'

Dean Richards was a constable too and, I think, Nigel Heslop. I expect ranks got left behind on the pitch.

Heard Bayfield use that line for himself too.
Yeah Heslop was a copper too.
Anyone got any personal memories of Heslop. I've seen him on a clip after England beat Scotland in the 91 world cup. He kept going in front of the camera being a goof, despite not even playing.

Heslop was a good club player and pacy new-style winger for Eng..did ok but got decked in a RWC match v France and played no part in the 91 latter stages.Seemed out of favour after this and went over to RL for some dough, before RU went pro.

NorthWestRugby wrote:

onlynameleft wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
I think I am right in saying that Dooley was a police constable and Ackford a police inspector. If so, it must have been an interesting partnership.

Yes. There's an old story about the day Ackford got floored by Federico Mendez, Dooley bent down as he lay on the turf and said "you can tell which one of us works behind a f88king desk can't you?'

Dean Richards was a constable too and, I think, Nigel Heslop. I expect ranks got left behind on the pitch.

Heard Bayfield use that line for himself too.
Yeah Heslop was a copper too.
Anyone got any personal memories of Heslop. I've seen him on a clip after England beat Scotland in the 91 world cup. He kept going in front of the camera being a goof, despite not even playing.

Bayfield wasn’t playing in that match. Before his time.

onlynameleft wrote:

NorthWestRugby wrote:

onlynameleft wrote:
Yes. There's an old story about the day Ackford got floored by Federico Mendez, Dooley bent down as he lay on the turf and said "you can tell which one of us works behind a f88king desk can't you?'

Dean Richards was a constable too and, I think, Nigel Heslop. I expect ranks got left behind on the pitch.

Heard Bayfield use that line for himself too.
Yeah Heslop was a copper too.
Anyone got any personal memories of Heslop. I've seen him on a clip after England beat Scotland in the 91 world cup. He kept going in front of the camera being a goof, despite not even playing.

Bayfield wasn’t playing in that match. Before his time.

Yes, I know that, I mean he used that line about him getting a smack in another match and Dooley saying the same thing to him

Numbers wrote:

onlynameleft wrote:Sure,Dooley was a thug but you needed thugs then and he was much better at being a thug than, say, Danny Grewcock. It was great that someone playing for PGH could play for England. These days it seems you can't even do that from the Championship even if it is for potentially only one season.
I always thought Hill (9) had a lovely quick, flat pass and any of the England 9's in the frame these days could learn a bit in that respect from him.

I remember thinking Hill was a step up from Dewi Morris who wasn't very good at distributing the ball at all.

Hill predated Morris in an England shirt iirc

Banquo wrote: Hill predated Morris..

He was feisty but wouldn't go that far..!
Probs thinking of Steve Smiff, but Ben Youngs's old fella had a few before Hill.

Banquo wrote:

Numbers wrote:

onlynameleft wrote:Sure,Dooley was a thug but you needed thugs then and he was much better at being a thug than, say, Danny Grewcock. It was great that someone playing for PGH could play for England. These days it seems you can't even do that from the Championship even if it is for potentially only one season.
I always thought Hill (9) had a lovely quick, flat pass and any of the England 9's in the frame these days could learn a bit in that respect from him.

I remember thinking Hill was a step up from Dewi Morris who wasn't very good at distributing the ball at all.

Hill predated Morris in an England shirt iirc

Hill was still playing for England in 91. Morris made his debut in that match against Australia in 88 in Carlings first match as captain.

NorthWestRugby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Numbers wrote:
I remember thinking Hill was a step up from Dewi Morris who wasn't very good at distributing the ball at all.

Hill predated Morris in an England shirt iirc

Hill was still playing for England in 91. Morris made his debut in that match against Australia in 88 in Carlings first match as captain.

......

Morris was dropped for Hill’s second coming in about 1990 iirc.