Which players are going to make a breakthrough in 19/20?

[Stom]

Yes. Pretty much make or break for Lamb. While he’s not been conspicuously bad, I’ve never seen any notable impact from him and he seems quite fragile. I’m not convinced he’ll make it, but I’d be happy to be proved wrong.

As I mentioned on the transfer thread, I’m excited about Jordan Els. From what I’ve seen, his playing still reminds me of Genge and without much competition behind Marler, I think he could quickly become an important part of the squad.

I’m also keen to see how Hodge and Hinkley settle at Exeter. With rotation likely to be pretty high, I think both could see some game time.

I’m not worried about fragility in a 19-22 year old forward. But he needs to start stringing more games together now. If he does, he could break through.

[Puja]

I'm looking at Maunder and Mitchell. Both White and Reinach are gone now and those two are being trusted by their clubs to step into the starting 9 jerseys for the remainder of the season. Play well and there's England caps for the taking. Play badly and maybe Exeter and Saints lose their nerves and start looking at journeymen again.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Don’t forget Exeter also signed Hidalgo-Clyne. After a slow start, he was actually pretty good for Quins, so Maunder and Townsend will definitely have some competition.

With Reinach gone and Boyd seemingly willing to give him the starting 9 spot, Mitchell needs to grasp the opportunity with both hands. I am crossing my fingers that he will!

[Puja]

Don’t forget Exeter also signed Hidalgo-Clyne. After a slow start, he was actually pretty good for Quins, so Maunder and Townsend will definitely have some competition.

With Reinach gone and Boyd seemingly willing to give him the starting 9 spot, Mitchell needs to grasp the opportunity with both hands. I am crossing my fingers that he will!

I had indeed already forgotten Hidalgo-Clyne. I'm hoping Baxter is planning to give Maunder his head with SHC as the backup if it goes wrong. Frankly, if JMaunder can't establish himself above SHC (acknowledging that he is a pretty handy player himself), then he's not the player I hoped he was.

Puja

[FKAS]

Stu Townsend is at Chiefs as well and he's a terrier of a 9. The kind of 9 most opposition forwards hope they find at the bottom of the ruck so they can give him a shoeing.

Certainly one of them needs to take hold of the 9 shirt because SHC is not the high level 9 a club like Exeter should be looking for as a starter. Townsend and J Maunder were both England under 20s now heading into their mid twenties it really is time to turn up consistently. Ben Youngs had pushed into England contention several years younger as did Danny Care. If Townsend and Maunder don't kick on the next generation of scrum halfs will overtake them for international duty.

I like Mitchell at Saints, he looked good at Sale early doors but has really kicked on under Boyd. His understudy Henry Taylor is a good scrum half as well. Ben White at Leicester has a lot of potential and is slowly coming into his own, he's a leader on the field. Randall and Uren at Bristol have both come on well, Randall great in attack whilst Uren has a really nice kicking game. I liked what I saw of Rory Brand at age group level bit he can't seem to get a look in at LI.

[16th man]

Ben Youngs had pushed into England contention several years younger as did Danny Care. If Townsend and Maunder don't kick on the next generation of scrum halfs will overtake them for international duty.

They weren't trying to break through with an England coach who'd rather not put a 3rd scrum half in the squad than pick a youngster though.

[Raggs]

Not really a breakthrough scrum half, but Ben Vellacott is fit again, can hopefully make a positive splash at Wasps.

[Puja]

Stu Townsend is at Chiefs as well and he's a terrier of a 9. The kind of 9 most opposition forwards hope they find at the bottom of the ruck so they can give him a shoeing.

Certainly one of them needs to take hold of the 9 shirt because SHC is not the high level 9 a club like Exeter should be looking for as a starter. Townsend and J Maunder were both England under 20s now heading into their mid twenties it really is time to turn up consistently. Ben Youngs had pushed into England contention several years younger as did Danny Care. If Townsend and Maunder don't kick on the next generation of scrum halfs will overtake them for international duty.

I like Mitchell at Saints, he looked good at Sale early doors but has really kicked on under Boyd. His understudy Henry Taylor is a good scrum half as well. Ben White at Leicester has a lot of potential and is slowly coming into his own, he's a leader on the field. Randall and Uren at Bristol have both come on well, Randall great in attack whilst Uren has a really nice kicking game. I liked what I saw of Rory Brand at age group level bit he can't seem to get a look in at LI.

I can't say as I rate Townsend that highly. He's solid and, like you say scrappy, but I want my 9 to get the ball from point A to point B accurately and fast, which is not where Townsend's strengths lie.

I also don't get the fuss about Ben White. He's so highly talked about, all the time (to the extent that he played in the Barbarians match), but whenever I've watched him play, he looks like a lesser latter-day Ben Youngs - inaccurate passing, not much in the way of useful sniping and breaking, slow service, not a great box-kicker. There's clearly something I'm missing, cause he is *so* highly rated, but I just don't know what it is.

Puja

[Beasties]

Not really a breakthrough scrum half, but Ben Vellacott is fit again, can hopefully make a positive splash at Wasps.

Wasps have a tidy roster of SHs if we can keep them all fit now. Porter and Wolstenholme looked promising this year.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. I like what I’ve seen from Wolstenholme and without too many 9s at Wasps, he can definitely expect some more game time.

I also like some of what I’ve seen from Ollie Fox at Bath but his route to be selected is a bit trickier with Spencer having signed for Bath and Chudley and Max Green in the mix. If I were Paul Gustard, I’d be keeping an eye on him for Quins.

Prior to signing for Wasps and Bath, Wolstenholme and Fox spent a year in the Championship playing week-in, week-out which seems to have given them a good foundation. I’m hoping both can really kick on in what’s left of this season.

Like Puja, I’m not convinced on Ben White. I can see some leadership qualities/organisational skills as FKAS highlighted, but not much else to excite me. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

[jngf]

I’m a huge fan of Jack Willis. If he can get back to his pre-injury form, I can see him in the England reckoning before too long.

Ibitoye is a funny one. He looked like a world-beater at U20 level but hasn’t yet been able to show that at senior level apart from the odd flash of talent here and there. Despite not having the glittering age grade career, Murley looked the far better of the two last season. Hopefully this is the year it clicks for Ibitoye.

There is a case to be made that a backrow of Hill, Willis, Dombrandt is vastly superior to the Lawes, Wilson, Curry trio last put out. I do think that ‘selectorial inertia’ kicks in though as in ‘once your in the England squad you stay in’ which might make it challenging for the first trio mentioned to break in.

[Scrumhead]

‘The Lawes, Wilson, Curry trio last put out’ ... when was that (if ever)? Our last back row was Lawes, Underhill and Curry I think.

I really rate Hill, Willis and Dombrandt but I think it’s a very bold claim to suggest that they are ‘vastly superior’ to three established internationals right now. They might be at some point in the future, but they currently share 1 cap between them (Hill) and as much as I’d like to see all three given a chance, I wouldn’t pick them as a rookie combination immediately.

[Tigersman]

Honestly I don't think Scrum half is a Club problem.
It seems to be more Eddie thing.

I get the feeling Youngs will have to retire from International to be dropped, OR Ben White, Harry Simmons, Jonny Law, Jack Van Poortvliet, Sam Edwards have to overtake him.

Youngs signed a long term deal with Leicester although sounds like he signed it with a view of becoming a player coach soonish judging by the press release comments

[FKAS]

Stu Townsend is at Chiefs as well and he's a terrier of a 9. The kind of 9 most opposition forwards hope they find at the bottom of the ruck so they can give him a shoeing.

Certainly one of them needs to take hold of the 9 shirt because SHC is not the high level 9 a club like Exeter should be looking for as a starter. Townsend and J Maunder were both England under 20s now heading into their mid twenties it really is time to turn up consistently. Ben Youngs had pushed into England contention several years younger as did Danny Care. If Townsend and Maunder don't kick on the next generation of scrum halfs will overtake them for international duty.

I like Mitchell at Saints, he looked good at Sale early doors but has really kicked on under Boyd. His understudy Henry Taylor is a good scrum half as well. Ben White at Leicester has a lot of potential and is slowly coming into his own, he's a leader on the field. Randall and Uren at Bristol have both come on well, Randall great in attack whilst Uren has a really nice kicking game. I liked what I saw of Rory Brand at age group level bit he can't seem to get a look in at LI.

I can't say as I rate Townsend that highly. He's solid and, like you say scrappy, but I want my 9 to get the ball from point A to point B accurately and fast, which is not where Townsend's strengths lie.

I also don't get the fuss about Ben White. He's so highly talked about, all the time (to the extent that he played in the Barbarians match), but whenever I've watched him play, he looks like a lesser latter-day Ben Youngs - inaccurate passing, not much in the way of useful sniping and breaking, slow service, not a great box-kicker. There's clearly something I'm missing, cause he is *so* highly rated, but I just don't know what it is.

Puja

I actually like the kicking and passing game of White. The frustration is that he doesn't control the tempo of the game, we can lose momentum because he takes too long at the breakdown. He needs to be setting the pulse of the game. Admittedly the foundations in front of him have been pretty poor and on occasions when he's tried to make things happen he's left isolated because our pack are about 10m behind looking confused. Less of a problem this season but in the days of a Fitzgerald, Williams, Kalamafoni backrow it was somewhat painful to watch.

White will need to kick on or he'll fall behind the chasing pack coming out of the academy. Youngs is still only 30 so could still have years left in him. Someone needs to come through and take the shirt off him. Having said that the couple of internationals he played post being dropped to the bench was some of the best rugby he'd played in years.

[Puja]

Honestly I don't think Scrum half is a Club problem.
It seems to be more Eddie thing.

I get the feeling Youngs will have to retire from International to be dropped, OR Ben White, Harry Simmons, Jonny Law, Jack Van Poortvliet, Sam Edwards have to overtake him.

Youngs signed a long term deal with Leicester although sounds like he signed it with a view of becoming a player coach soonish judging by the press release comments

I think it's a bit unfair to solely blame Uncle Eddie for the scrum-half problem - we've been lacking scrum-halves for a long while (I'm not a huge Robson fan and Spencer is utter meh) and the sudden flurry of young ones coming through means nothing until they've actually come through.

I actually like the kicking and passing game of White. The frustration is that he doesn't control the tempo of the game, we can lose momentum because he takes too long at the breakdown. He needs to be setting the pulse of the game. Admittedly the foundations in front of him have been pretty poor and on occasions when he's tried to make things happen he's left isolated because our pack are about 10m behind looking confused. Less of a problem this season but in the days of a Fitzgerald, Williams, Kalamafoni backrow it was somewhat painful to watch.

White will need to kick on or he'll fall behind the chasing pack coming out of the academy. Youngs is still only 30 so could still have years left in him. Someone needs to come through and take the shirt off him. Having said that the couple of internationals he played post being dropped to the bench was some of the best rugby he'd played in years.

Fair point that White's hardly had the most supportive introduction to top level rugby (and don't talk about that back row again; I'm trying to repress the memories!). Will watch to see how he does.

Agreed that Youngs has come back a bit. He is overcriticised on here and does turn in some really excellent performances (this 6N, NZ semi final), but when he gets it wrong, it goes *really* wrong (Ireland, RWC final).

Puja

[Banquo]

‘The Lawes, Wilson, Curry trio last put out’ ... when was that (if ever)? Our last back row was Lawes, Underhill and Curry I think.

I really rate Hill, Willis and Dombrandt but I think it’s a very bold claim to suggest that they are ‘vastly superior’ to three established internationals right now. They might be at some point in the future, but they currently share 1 cap between them (Hill) and as much as I’d like to see all three given a chance, I wouldn’t pick them as a rookie combination immediately.

well quite, Wilson and Curry (and Underhill) are all proven class acts at international. The others....aren't, Though I like the look of Hill and Willis, who are consistently good, and Dombrandt who hopefully will get some consistency.

[Banquo]

Honestly I don't think Scrum half is a Club problem.
It seems to be more Eddie thing.

I get the feeling Youngs will have to retire from International to be dropped, OR Ben White, Harry Simmons, Jonny Law, Jack Van Poortvliet, Sam Edwards have to overtake him.

Youngs signed a long term deal with Leicester although sounds like he signed it with a view of becoming a player coach soonish judging by the press release comments

He's been a bit stubborn, but has tried- or at least looked at in training- various options.....and his door has hardly been kicked down. The better 9's in the prem have been non EQP, generally.

[Scrumhead]

‘The Lawes, Wilson, Curry trio last put out’ ... when was that (if ever)? Our last back row was Lawes, Underhill and Curry I think.

I really rate Hill, Willis and Dombrandt but I think it’s a very bold claim to suggest that they are ‘vastly superior’ to three established internationals right now. They might be at some point in the future, but they currently share 1 cap between them (Hill) and as much as I’d like to see all three given a chance, I wouldn’t pick them as a rookie combination immediately.

well quite, Wilson and Curry (and Underhill) are all proven class acts at international. The others....aren't, Though I like the look of Hill and Willis, who are consistently good, and Dombrandt who hopefully will get some consistency.

Bit harsh on Lawes. I’d include him among the ‘proven class acts’ club. I assume that was a mistake rather than an omission?

To be fair to Dombrandt, he’s not actually that inconsistent. His highlight reel has people expecting the same from him all the time, but even in the games that don’t include a big break or a noteworthy offload, he’s still more than decent. He seems to have spent time improving his work rate and defence and is looking a lot fitter based upon the Quins Instagram feed.

[Stom]

‘The Lawes, Wilson, Curry trio last put out’ ... when was that (if ever)? Our last back row was Lawes, Underhill and Curry I think.

I really rate Hill, Willis and Dombrandt but I think it’s a very bold claim to suggest that they are ‘vastly superior’ to three established internationals right now. They might be at some point in the future, but they currently share 1 cap between them (Hill) and as much as I’d like to see all three given a chance, I wouldn’t pick them as a rookie combination immediately.

well quite, Wilson and Curry (and Underhill) are all proven class acts at international. The others....aren't, Though I like the look of Hill and Willis, who are consistently good, and Dombrandt who hopefully will get some consistency.

Bit harsh on Lawes. I’d include him among the ‘proven class acts’ club. I assume that was a mistake rather than an omission?

To be fair to Dombrandt, he’s not actually that inconsistent. His highlight reel has people expecting the same from him all the time, but even in the games that don’t include a big break or a noteworthy offload, he’s still more than decent. He seems to have spent time improving his work rate and defence and is looking a lot fitter based upon the Quins Instagram feed.

At flank?

[Scrumhead]

Yes. I’d much prefer him at lock, but he’s had plenty of good performances at 6.

Having said that, what excites me about Ted Hill is that he’s basically what Eddie wants from Lawes in the form of an actual flanker. Our answer to PSDT.

[Banquo]

‘The Lawes, Wilson, Curry trio last put out’ ... when was that (if ever)? Our last back row was Lawes, Underhill and Curry I think.

I really rate Hill, Willis and Dombrandt but I think it’s a very bold claim to suggest that they are ‘vastly superior’ to three established internationals right now. They might be at some point in the future, but they currently share 1 cap between them (Hill) and as much as I’d like to see all three given a chance, I wouldn’t pick them as a rookie combination immediately.

well quite, Wilson and Curry (and Underhill) are all proven class acts at international. The others....aren't, Though I like the look of Hill and Willis, who are consistently good, and Dombrandt who hopefully will get some consistency.

Bit harsh on Lawes. I’d include him among the ‘proven class acts’ club. I assume that was a mistake rather than an omission?

To be fair to Dombrandt, he’s not actually that inconsistent. His highlight reel has people expecting the same from him all the time, but even in the games that don’t include a big break or a noteworthy offload, he’s still more than decent. He seems to have spent time improving his work rate and defence and is looking a lot fitter based upon the Quins Instagram feed.

Not as a back row- he's been no better than ok there at best at intl level.
Dombrandt wasn't always being picked as I recall, but it was hardly an unfair comment either, given you have alluded to him improving his work rate in the downtime.

[Stom]

well quite, Wilson and Curry (and Underhill) are all proven class acts at international. The others....aren't, Though I like the look of Hill and Willis, who are consistently good, and Dombrandt who hopefully will get some consistency.

Bit harsh on Lawes. I’d include him among the ‘proven class acts’ club. I assume that was a mistake rather than an omission?

To be fair to Dombrandt, he’s not actually that inconsistent. His highlight reel has people expecting the same from him all the time, but even in the games that don’t include a big break or a noteworthy offload, he’s still more than decent. He seems to have spent time improving his work rate and defence and is looking a lot fitter based upon the Quins Instagram feed.

Not as a back row- he's been no better than ok there at best at intl level.
Dombrandt wasn't always being picked as I recall, but it was hardly an unfair comment either, given you have alluded to him improving his work rate in the downtime.

Part of that seemed to be Gustard wanting 3 grafters in the backrow, so we had Lawday at 8 to add even more workrate and "graft" instead of another player who can make things happen.

Don't get me wrong, I like Lawday, but he's just like a lesser version of James Chisholm to me, and should be our backup flanker, not our starting 8. But I seem to disagree with our head coach on many things. Like I think Elia has huge potential and should be given lots of minutes at hooker, but Gustard thinks Baldwin can actually play rugby, not just stick his fat fingers into a Lion's mouth.

[Banquo]

Bit harsh on Lawes. I’d include him among the ‘proven class acts’ club. I assume that was a mistake rather than an omission?

To be fair to Dombrandt, he’s not actually that inconsistent. His highlight reel has people expecting the same from him all the time, but even in the games that don’t include a big break or a noteworthy offload, he’s still more than decent. He seems to have spent time improving his work rate and defence and is looking a lot fitter based upon the Quins Instagram feed.

Not as a back row- he's been no better than ok there at best at intl level.
Dombrandt wasn't always being picked as I recall, but it was hardly an unfair comment either, given you have alluded to him improving his work rate in the downtime.

Part of that seemed to be Gustard wanting 3 grafters in the backrow, so we had Lawday at 8 to add even more workrate and "graft" instead of another player who can make things happen.

Don't get me wrong, I like Lawday, but he's just like a lesser version of James Chisholm to me, and should be our backup flanker, not our starting 8. But I seem to disagree with our head coach on many things. Like I think Elia has huge potential and should be given lots of minutes at hooker, but Gustard thinks Baldwin can actually play rugby, not just stick his fat fingers into a Lion's mouth.

It seems that Dombrandt has taken the hint on workrate and contribution.

[Scrumhead]

Bit harsh on Lawes. I’d include him among the ‘proven class acts’ club. I assume that was a mistake rather than an omission?

To be fair to Dombrandt, he’s not actually that inconsistent. His highlight reel has people expecting the same from him all the time, but even in the games that don’t include a big break or a noteworthy offload, he’s still more than decent. He seems to have spent time improving his work rate and defence and is looking a lot fitter based upon the Quins Instagram feed.

Not as a back row- he's been no better than ok there at best at intl level.
Dombrandt wasn't always being picked as I recall, but it was hardly an unfair comment either, given you have alluded to him improving his work rate in the downtime.

Part of that seemed to be Gustard wanting 3 grafters in the backrow, so we had Lawday at 8 to add even more workrate and "graft" instead of another player who can make things happen.

Don't get me wrong, I like Lawday, but he's just like a lesser version of James Chisholm to me, and should be our backup flanker, not our starting 8. But I seem to disagree with our head coach on many things. Like I think Elia has huge potential and should be given lots of minutes at hooker, but Gustard thinks Baldwin can actually play rugby, not just stick his fat fingers into a Lion's mouth.

I feel the same about Lawday, but I don’t really agree on Elia. He was getting plenty of game time prior to getting injured and has shown a lot of improvement recently. If he’d been as good as he has been this season in 18/19, we might not have signed Baldwin (who is nowhere near as bad as you’re making out).

You seem very anti-Gustard.

[Stom]

Not as a back row- he's been no better than ok there at best at intl level.
Dombrandt wasn't always being picked as I recall, but it was hardly an unfair comment either, given you have alluded to him improving his work rate in the downtime.

Part of that seemed to be Gustard wanting 3 grafters in the backrow, so we had Lawday at 8 to add even more workrate and "graft" instead of another player who can make things happen.

Don't get me wrong, I like Lawday, but he's just like a lesser version of James Chisholm to me, and should be our backup flanker, not our starting 8. But I seem to disagree with our head coach on many things. Like I think Elia has huge potential and should be given lots of minutes at hooker, but Gustard thinks Baldwin can actually play rugby, not just stick his fat fingers into a Lion's mouth.

I feel the same about Lawday, but I don’t really agree on Elia. He was getting plenty of game time prior to getting injured and has shown a lot of improvement recently. If he’d been as good as he has been this season in 18/19, we might not have signed Baldwin (who is nowhere near as bad as you’re making out).

You seem very anti-Gustard.

I just don’t like stodgy players and modern rugby systems, 2 things Gustard seems to love. I just felt his constant dropping of Smith was poor, especially as we inevitably lost or were losing before Smith came off the bench.