Next up, Ireland

[Scrumhead]

IIRC, the original prognosis was that Curry and Underhill would be likely to be available for the Ireland game. Wilson wasn’t mentioned but I don’t think his injury is major (bruised ribs I think?).

Hopefully we’ll have all three available, Billy gets a rest and Lawes is used as an impact lock (which, I agree with Banquo, is what he does best) rather than a makeshift 6.

[Mellsblue]

Jones hinting that the Ire match will the 1stXV, as far as is possible. Billy might be doing at least another 60mins.

[TheDasher]

Does he? In what way?

It’s a no from me.

If EJ selected Lawes at 8, I really don't think I'd watch England anymore, it would be diabolical.

[TheDasher]

Having a backup number 8 who isn't a specialist (but has played there, very well in fact, this season) isn't that strange. I'm more concerned that about half our squad appear to be unfit to play and we've not even started the tournament.

Wilson did play pretty well, yes, but he's a flanker.

Billy is injury-prone and there's a distinct possibility he'll get injured at the WC. We need more than Wilson at number 8 if we have really serious aspirations of winning the thing.

But I take you're point.

Right. But say we go back to Bill and Ben in the same match-day squad- which I was actually a massive fan of, back when neither seemed to have 80 minutes in them- you still hit the same snag if your openside goes down injured after 3 minutes.

As with tight-head/scrum-half, the worry is a short-term injury to a key player meaning you don't want to permanently remove them from the squad. So I agree that another specialist 8 in the squad would be great, but it really feels like we're only worrying right now because 3 of our 5 backrows are somehow injured or deemed a risk.

Swap out Ludlam for Dombrandt and we'd have been able to give Billy a rest this week, or not play Lawes at 6. But we'd probably have had to watch Singleton play 7.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting having Bill and Ben in the same match-day squad necessarily, but the same world cup squad... I don't think they have to be in the same match-day squad at all.

If your specialist no8 is injured during a game and you have to move a flanker (Wilson, Ludlam, Curry) there for less than 80 mins due to bad luck that's one thing, but not picking two number 8s in the overall squad when your only 8 is highly injury prone is another.

Dombrandt seemed a fairly logical pick to cover 6 and 8, and to an extent so did Hughes if Dombrandt isn't your thing. Re Morgan, I've always rated him hugely highly, he'd be in my squad, but I've given up on that one.

[Mikey Brown]

I get that, and for what it’s worth I would have had another look at Morgan in the last 18 months too. But if we were facing the same situation with injuries as we are now, and Morgan presumably in place of Ludlum, we’d still be wondering who to play at flanker. In fact we’d probably have had to play Morgan or Billy there.

It’s fair enough to call Billy injury prone, but he’s the only one who’s avoided it so far.

[Banquo]

I get that, and for what it’s worth I would have had another look at Morgan in the last 18 months too. But if we were facing the same situation with injuries as we are now, and Morgan presumably in place of Ludlum, we’d still be wondering who to play at flanker. In fact we’d probably have had to play Morgan or Billy there.

It’s fair enough to call Billy injury prone, but he’s the only one who’s avoided it so far.

oh dear...

[Scrumhead]

Yes - don’t jinx it

[twitchy]

What approach have ireland taken in their line ups?

[fivepointer]

They've just had the one game, beating Italy 29-10 with a largely 2nd string side.
I expect them to put out a side very close to their strongest available on Saturday.

[Oakboy]

I get that, and for what it’s worth I would have had another look at Morgan in the last 18 months too. But if we were facing the same situation with injuries as we are now, and Morgan presumably in place of Ludlum, we’d still be wondering who to play at flanker. In fact we’d probably have had to play Morgan or Billy there.

It’s fair enough to call Billy injury prone, but he’s the only one who’s avoided it so far.

oh dear...

Fate tempting though it is to even think about it, I'd love to know what Jones's Plan B is for the No 8 shirt.

[Mikey Brown]

...beyond Wilson???

Are we still actually debating whether Wilson is the backup or not? If Billy gets a bad one he'll probably look at Shields again. I don't see if getting much more exciting than that.

He might have been having a sneaky look at Kvesic (if needed to come in and replace Curry/Underhill) as a player who's able to pack down there in an emergency, but I doubt it.

[jngf]

I get that, and for what it’s worth I would have had another look at Morgan in the last 18 months too. But if we were facing the same situation with injuries as we are now, and Morgan presumably in place of Ludlum, we’d still be wondering who to play at flanker. In fact we’d probably have had to play Morgan or Billy there.

It’s fair enough to call Billy injury prone, but he’s the only one who’s avoided it so far.

oh dear...

Fate tempting though it is to even think about it, I'd love to know what Jones's Plan B is for the No 8 shirt.

I think Eddy’s really pushed his luck regarding Billy.

[Freddo]

https://www.radioexe.co.uk/news-and-fea ... isemantel/

Injury updates in the article above.

[Timbo]

I get that, and for what it’s worth I would have had another look at Morgan in the last 18 months too. But if we were facing the same situation with injuries as we are now, and Morgan presumably in place of Ludlum, we’d still be wondering who to play at flanker. In fact we’d probably have had to play Morgan or Billy there.

It’s fair enough to call Billy injury prone, but he’s the only one who’s avoided it so far.

You’re right. There won’t be any other major nation that picks two specialist 8’s in their squad. 6 and 7 are so attritional (we are currently down 4 from the original squad- TCurry, Underhill, Wilson and Shields- and Ludlam was barely passed fit for last week apparently), all it takes is a couple of minor knocks or hia’s and we’ve got Ben Morgan or Nathan Hughes packing down in the same backrow as Billy....and we’re getting all kinds of fucked at the breakdown and round the park as a result.

[Puja]

I cannot believe we are still having the discussion as to whether regular Premiership #8, MotM vs South Africa #8, star against NZ and Australia #8, and man who has not yet had a bad game while playing #8 for England, Mark Wilson, is capable of covering 8 for England. I just cannot believe it.

Puja

[Puja]

https://www.radioexe.co.uk/news-and-fea ... isemantel/

Injury updates in the article above.

Having Mako back already is incredible - they were talking touch and go for him to play any of the warm-ups, so to have him in the conversation a fortnight early is superb.

We need two of Wilson, Underhill and Curry fit to play against Ireland, we really do.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I cannot believe we are still having the discussion as to whether regular Premiership #8, MotM vs South Africa #8, star against NZ and Australia #8, and man who has not yet had a bad game while playing #8 for England, Mark Wilson, is capable of covering 8 for England. I just cannot believe it.

Puja

Puja, that was not my point. Yes, Wilson plays at 8 if Billy is injured once the RWC starts, of course. I was wondering what the Plan B was if Billy was out of the RWC after this weekend, say. Would Wilson become 1st choice at 8 or would Jones replace Billy with another 8 in the 31? Let's face it, Jones has taken a huge risk playing him in both games so far and possibly all the first three. He must have thought about it.

[Stom]

I cannot believe we are still having the discussion as to whether regular Premiership #8, MotM vs South Africa #8, star against NZ and Australia #8, and man who has not yet had a bad game while playing #8 for England, Mark Wilson, is capable of covering 8 for England. I just cannot believe it.

Puja

Puja, that was not my point. Yes, Wilson plays at 8 if Billy is injured once the RWC starts, of course. I was wondering what the Plan B was if Billy was out of the RWC after this weekend, say. Would Wilson become 1st choice at 8 or would Jones replace Billy with another 8 in the 31? Let's face it, Jones has taken a huge risk playing him in both games so far and possibly all the first three. He must have thought about it.

2 things, Dors.

1) He will likely call up Hughes.
2) He has access to much more conditioning information than you do. Players play the number of minutes they play and in the games they play them because that is what the sports scientists within the team have decided is the best way to prepare that player for the WC.

Billy has always been a slow starter. He needs games to ease him into things. He's getting that.

Every game is an injury risk, but I'd rather hit the WC with a fully cooked Billy than a rare one likely to break down if he gives it his all cold.

[p/d]

Wilson in an England jersey is the nuts. If we can get him and Curry on the pitch both fit and firing then we will be in a good place

[jngf]

I cannot believe we are still having the discussion as to whether regular Premiership #8, MotM vs South Africa #8, star against NZ and Australia #8, and man who has not yet had a bad game while playing #8 for England, Mark Wilson, is capable of covering 8 for England. I just cannot believe it.

Puja

Perhaps because some of us see him as significantly underpowered compared to the 8s that the boks, France and Oz are likely to field?

[Beasties]

But more capable at and around the breakdown, where we've regularly been getting shafted? I've been banging the Mark Wilson drum for ages now, just having him on the pitch makes Eng a better team. He might not be Richard Hill but he's the nearest thing we've got.

[jngf]

But more capable at and around the breakdown, where we've regularly been getting shafted? I've been banging the Mark Wilson drum for ages now, just having him on the pitch makes Eng a better team. He might not be Richard Hill but he's the nearest thing we've got.

Happy to have him involved as a blindside flanker where he has the specialist skill set for the role - however playing Wilson at 8 doesn’t strike me as significantly much better than playing Robshaw there. At premiership level the 6 and 8 roles appear far more interchangeable (hence Wilson and on occasions Robshaw used there by their clubs) imo test rugby requires a heightened emphasis on having a really powerful carrying 8 (whether that power comes largely by shear physical presence e.g. Billy or more from explosive pace e.g. Clifford - Wilson has yet to convince me of having either of these X factors ).

[Digby]

Wilson in an England jersey is the nuts. If we can get him and Curry on the pitch both fit and firing then we will be in a good place

Clearly bollocks

[Digby]

But more capable at and around the breakdown, where we've regularly been getting shafted? I've been banging the Mark Wilson drum for ages now, just having him on the pitch makes Eng a better team. He might not be Richard Hill but he's the nearest thing we've got.

Happy to have him involved as a blindside flanker where he has the specialist skill set for the role - however playing Wilson at 8 doesn’t strike me as significantly much better than playing Robshaw there. At premiership level the 6 and 8 roles appear far more interchangeable (hence Wilson and on occasions Robshaw used there by their clubs) imo test rugby requires a heightened emphasis on having a really powerful carrying 8 (whether that power comes largely by shear physical presence e.g. Billy or more explosive pace e.g. Clifford - Wilson has yet to convince me of having either of these X factors ).

Not the 7 & 8?

[Oakboy]

I cannot believe we are still having the discussion as to whether regular Premiership #8, MotM vs South Africa #8, star against NZ and Australia #8, and man who has not yet had a bad game while playing #8 for England, Mark Wilson, is capable of covering 8 for England. I just cannot believe it.

Puja

Puja, that was not my point. Yes, Wilson plays at 8 if Billy is injured once the RWC starts, of course. I was wondering what the Plan B was if Billy was out of the RWC after this weekend, say. Would Wilson become 1st choice at 8 or would Jones replace Billy with another 8 in the 31? Let's face it, Jones has taken a huge risk playing him in both games so far and possibly all the first three. He must have thought about it.

2 things, Dors.

1) He will likely call up Hughes.
2) He has access to much more conditioning information than you do. Players play the number of minutes they play and in the games they play them because that is what the sports scientists within the team have decided is the best way to prepare that player for the WC.

Billy has always been a slow starter. He needs games to ease him into things. He's getting that.

Every game is an injury risk, but I'd rather hit the WC with a fully cooked Billy than a rare one likely to break down if he gives it his all cold.

Stom, you clearly have more faith in Jones's regime than I do.

As for Billy, if your theory, with which other posters have agreed, is correct, I'd have expected him to look better in Cardiff than at Twickenham. In fact, I thought he looked worse and at times, almost lethargic. He certainly disappeared for more periods though that may have been because we kicked so much leaving him a distance away from the action.

I think managing Billy is simple - don't use him unless you need to. IMO, based only on watching him on TV, Billy is at his best in the big games when he has no injury-linked self-doubts. I'd rather have him healed and rested physically but champing at the bit mentally.

As for Wilson, IMO, he is a very good 6 but an adequate 8. I'd suggest, from all players available to play in our back row, his selection in the 6 shirt is the second most important for the big games after Billy at 8. Any of the other three will do at 7, though Curry is obviously first choice.

One interesting slant on this. Is it unfair to say that at least four of the five backrowers are injury-prone? We may see Lawtoje for half the RWC matches, I suspect.