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Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:01 pm
by MrK
As a Welshman .
If you do finish second , for the first time I can remember , I’d rather us face a team with billy v in it than out of it .
Not sure the playing him into form and fitness approach has worked .
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:11 am
by Timbo
He’s gotten steadily worse, if anything. Played well in the two games at home to Wales and Ireland in the warm ups...that Argentine 40 was the worst I’ve seen him play in years.
Think he’ll deliver a big game in the quarters though. He’s due one.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 am
by Raggs
Billy is off for a scan. Marler may be out.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:47 am
by Danno
Raggs wrote:Billy is off for a scan. Marler may be out.
Grauniad link for convenience:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... for-france
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:47 am
by Banquo
MrK wrote:As a Welshman .
If you do finish second , for the first time I can remember , I’d rather us face a team with billy v in it than out of it .
Not sure the playing him into form and fitness approach has worked .
Be careful what you wish for; he was pretty average v Argentina, yet still made good interventions. He is being heavily marked, which is theoretically good news for other carriers if we get our decision making right.
He looks a bit tired to me, but looks like he might get rest
...in which case, and if Wilson is still struggling, Eddies ongoing strategy will be interesting.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:47 am
by Mikey Brown
Marler out would be a massive blow.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:49 am
by Banquo
jngf wrote:richy678 wrote:Billy is the conundrum here.
He is a big bloke, that apparently struggles to keep fit training (in an elite, international, well funded utilising modern sports science and psychology set up)??? and gets bored if he doesn't play every week.
He was clearly carrying a bad ankle and struggled with handling against Argentina. The handling is a factor of the conditions, admittedly.
We have all seen him have many games where picks and goes, makes yards and drags 3 or 4 opposition to the ground with him.
On the other hand we have two wing forwards seemingly playing very well that appear to be first choice, with a really robust and fearless youngster and a seemingly multi skilled, right place, right time, johnny on the spot type of player in Wilson as back up.
Only, our coach seems to like to pick a lumpy big unit of a number 8, but only bought one, leaving the normal understudy - Hughes, at home. This is after experimenting with Simmonds as a different tactic the previous season.
If Billy cannot be dynamic his body weight is dead weight. I absolutely agree that if we get ourselves so out scrummaged that we need an 8 to pick the ball out of the second row and make a metre and 10 seconds around the corner, a big bloke is better. At the moment we seem to be scrummaging ok - bar Gengey getting stuffed against Tonga.
Give Billy a rest against France. Play Wilson. Get Billy's ankle fixed and get in his head what he has to do.
Post RWC apart from getting a new captain and 12 one of the first things I would recommend the selectors urgently need to address should be making England play in such a way that it can once more accommodate a faster, more athletic style of no.8 rather than solely relying on a later day ‘Deano’ style.
Built around Itoje?
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:51 am
by Mikey Brown
I've got a good idea for the fast athletic 8 alternative. Continue picking Curry and Billy but swap their shirt numbers. Does that do the job, Jngf?
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:55 am
by Mellsblue
Mikey Brown wrote:Marler out would be a massive blow.
This. He has been superb.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:10 am
by Oakboy
I have never understood the current trait by physios in strapping an ankle and allowing a player to continue. At the height of my ankle issues, my orthopaedic consultant who was then the main specialist for the British athletics team, stated categorically, "The ankle is the body's shock absorber."
He went on to insist that, during a game, if you must, you strap an ankle very loosely under a sock for protection only (I was into the round ball at that time). You do not restrict the ankle's movement in any way because that automatically puts extra stress on the knee.
The only other time you bandage an ankle is after a game when the foot is immobilised and elevated - to help reduce swelling.
Billy, IMO, is a classic example where an ankle should not be restricted. He is a very bulky unit. The stress on his knee must already be huge. If he had ankle pain he should have been taken off immediately.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:10 am
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote:
he should have been taken off immediately.
This.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:55 am
by Timbo
Sounds ok for both Marler and Billy (famous last words). Chris Jones at the BBC has said England pretty confident Billy’s ankle not serious.
Any doubt at all about either they should have their feet up this weekend. Wales and, bizarrely, Oz have dangerous scrums and we’re gonna need Marler for that qf.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:57 am
by Digby
Billy being out would be a huge blow, but losing Marler I'm not so fussed about unless Mako isn't fit. Marler has done what he does well, but is also part of slowing our pack and reducing carrying options, and Mako if fit is perhaps the best prop in world rugby
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:58 am
by Puja
Banquo wrote:jngf wrote:Post RWC apart from getting a new captain and 12 one of the first things I would recommend the selectors urgently need to address should be making England play in such a way that it can once more accommodate a faster, more athletic style of no.8 rather than solely relying on a later day ‘Deano’ style.
Built around Itoje?
{Mod} As jngf has graciously agreed not to argue his case until the RWC is over, to avoid threads turning into the Itoje at 8 redux, it's only fair that we don't tease him about it while he's unable to reply. {/Mod}
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:04 am
by Digby
Ackerman for 8 it is then, let's ditch this proven world class player nobody wants to play against.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:06 am
by Puja
Digby wrote:Billy being out would be a huge blow, but losing Marler I'm not so fussed about unless Mako isn't fit. Marler has done what he does well, but is also part of slowing our pack and reducing carrying options, and Mako if fit is perhaps the best prop in world rugby
I want to see Mako get through a full match before believing he's fit. Hamstrings are tricky things and if his goes ping again, then Genge is not currently good enough to play against Australia or New Zealand. Not to mention that our back-up back-up loosehead is LCD, who hasn't played there since age-grade.
If Mako survives 60 mins against France, then I'll be okay with losing Marler. Right now, it's still a bit close to the edge.
Puja
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:08 am
by Mikey Brown
Digby wrote:Billy being out would be a huge blow, but losing Marler I'm not so fussed about unless Mako isn't fit. Marler has done what he does well, but is also part of slowing our pack and reducing carrying options, and Mako if fit is perhaps the best prop in world rugby
Hmm. I'm clearly biased but I think the gap between the two is far smaller than a lot of people suggest. No he's not that dynamic but he's pretty canny around the field and always seems to make some good contributions
* even outside the scrum/big hits.
*Holding on to people at rucks and blocking lines
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:23 am
by Digby
Mikey Brown wrote:Digby wrote:Billy being out would be a huge blow, but losing Marler I'm not so fussed about unless Mako isn't fit. Marler has done what he does well, but is also part of slowing our pack and reducing carrying options, and Mako if fit is perhaps the best prop in world rugby
Hmm. I'm clearly biased but I think the gap between the two is far smaller than a lot of people suggest. No he's not that dynamic but he's pretty canny around the field and always seems to make some good contributions
* even outside the scrum/big hits.
*Holding on to people at rucks and blocking lines
I promise you the Sarries pack are excellent at holding people off the ball and running blocking lines, not that England seem quite so keen to build on that.
And I think you could argue the gap isn't big, it's very hard to be better than a very good solid player at test level, but small gaps in standard are still significant. It's like fast bowling, the gap between 88mph and 91mph isn't big, but as it plays out on the pitch it's significant
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:42 am
by Oakboy
Mikey Brown wrote:Digby wrote:Billy being out would be a huge blow, but losing Marler I'm not so fussed about unless Mako isn't fit. Marler has done what he does well, but is also part of slowing our pack and reducing carrying options, and Mako if fit is perhaps the best prop in world rugby
Hmm. I'm clearly biased but I think the gap between the two is far smaller than a lot of people suggest. No he's not that dynamic but he's pretty canny around the field and always seems to make some good contributions
* even outside the scrum/big hits.
*Holding on to people at rucks and blocking lines
Agreed. I've always seen Marler as the starter and Mako as the finisher.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:18 am
by jngf
Mikey Brown wrote:I've got a good idea for the fast athletic 8 alternative. Continue picking Curry and Billy but swap their shirt numbers. Does that do the job, Jngf?
Given, I’ve some reservations about Curry being big enough to play 6 you can probably infer my answer about a position requiring even more power and size.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:24 am
by richy678
Just wanted to say I am a Billy fan, when he's playing well, just can't understand the squad Eddie picked if he was struggling, with EJ wanting a 20stoner in the 8shirt.
If Marler is crocked, it's a blow. A proven test prop who looks like he's enjoying himself and playing well, without even considering where Mako is. Gengey didn't look all that against Tonga, did he?
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:02 pm
by Scrumhead
Mikey Brown wrote:Digby wrote:Billy being out would be a huge blow, but losing Marler I'm not so fussed about unless Mako isn't fit. Marler has done what he does well, but is also part of slowing our pack and reducing carrying options, and Mako if fit is perhaps the best prop in world rugby
Hmm. I'm clearly biased but I think the gap between the two is far smaller than a lot of people suggest. No he's not that dynamic but he's pretty canny around the field and always seems to make some good contributions
* even outside the scrum/big hits.
*Holding on to people at rucks and blocking lines
I agree.
Mako is a better rugby player who, at is best is almost unanimously regarded as World Class, but Marler is a better prop, a very good defender and great at clearing rucks etc.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:17 pm
by Banquo
Puja wrote:Banquo wrote:jngf wrote:Post RWC apart from getting a new captain and 12 one of the first things I would recommend the selectors urgently need to address should be making England play in such a way that it can once more accommodate a faster, more athletic style of no.8 rather than solely relying on a later day ‘Deano’ style.
Built around Itoje?
{Mod} As jngf has graciously agreed not to argue his case until the RWC is over, to avoid threads turning into the Itoje at 8 redux, it's only fair that we don't tease him about it while he's unable to reply. {/Mod}
Gosh I must have missed the signature of that treaty. I will try and moderate my own behaviour
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:29 pm
by Banquo
Scrumhead wrote:Mikey Brown wrote:Digby wrote:Billy being out would be a huge blow, but losing Marler I'm not so fussed about unless Mako isn't fit. Marler has done what he does well, but is also part of slowing our pack and reducing carrying options, and Mako if fit is perhaps the best prop in world rugby
Hmm. I'm clearly biased but I think the gap between the two is far smaller than a lot of people suggest. No he's not that dynamic but he's pretty canny around the field and always seems to make some good contributions
* even outside the scrum/big hits.
*Holding on to people at rucks and blocking lines
I agree.
Mako is a better rugby player who, at is best is almost unanimously regarded as World Class, but Marler is a better prop, a very good defender and great at clearing rucks etc.
Mako makes a huge difference in attack as handler and carrier, and that's why he should be starting and staying on longer imo. Who is the better lifter at lineout and restarts? Given Mako plays with both our starting locks, that has to have some bearing.
Re: England vs France - Back in White
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:30 pm
by Mikey Brown
jngf wrote:Mikey Brown wrote:I've got a good idea for the fast athletic 8 alternative. Continue picking Curry and Billy but swap their shirt numbers. Does that do the job, Jngf?
Given, I’ve some reservations about Curry being big enough to play 6 you can probably infer my answer about a position requiring even more power and size.
My point is the balance of it. Are we changing the game-plan entirely and not requiring a big, heavy carrier like Vunipola (who even at his least effective draws in a huge number of defenders) or are we shuffling the shape of the backrow to have a big hitter/carrier at 6 for instance?
Given you've just said 8 requires more power and size than 6 I'd guess not the latter one. If we can rebalance the pack to allow for a Simmonds/Mercer to be used effectively at 8 (and not have it all fall apart as soon as it starts raining) then great, but I'm curious how you picture the end goal of this that it makes removing one of our best players (over the last 4 years) worth it.