RugbyRebels

Beasties wrote:

Renniks wrote:

p/d wrote:If the article in the DT is to believed - quoting Ben Youngs - then we are about to unleash the mother of all attacking moves on Aus.

I'm all agog

It's Billy V and Tuilagi running at weak shoulders, isn't it…

Are we actually gonna involve Tuilagi in the game this time? Could be a cracking idea.

You think we’ve under utilised his kick chase abilities?

Have we actually seen that move yet where everyone stands in a straight line behind the scrum? I feel like we’ve been seeing teams line up like that for years now and then the ball never comes out.

Maybe now is the time?

Of all the scrum half skills, one is far and away ahead of all others - the ability to clear the ball quickly with a fast and accurate pass with no dithering around. ( This was about the only skill that Peter Stringer had, and he did OK.) If you do not have that skill, the others do not compensate. I don't think Young's has it.

Spiffy wrote:Of all the scrum half skills, one is far and away ahead of all others - the ability to clear the ball quickly with a fast and accurate pass with no dithering around. ( This was about the only skill that Peter Stringer had, and he did OK.) If you do not have that skill, the others do not compensate. I don't think Young's has it.

Spiffy wrote:Of all the scrum half skills, one is far and away ahead of all others - the ability to clear the ball quickly with a fast and accurate pass with no dithering around. ( This was about the only skill that Peter Stringer had, and he did OK.) If you do not have that skill, the others do not compensate. I don't think Young's has it.

Quite. It is weird that Japan and Fiji can find SHs to do it so easily when we can't find any.

Spiffy wrote:Of all the scrum half skills, one is far and away ahead of all others - the ability to clear the ball quickly with a fast and accurate pass with no dithering around. ( This was about the only skill that Peter Stringer had, and he did OK.) If you do not have that skill, the others do not compensate. I don't think Young's has it.

Large numbers of very successful 9s don't clear anything like Stringer, and are much better players than Stringer into the bargain. So you'd have to question if passing really is that far ahead, reality rather intrudes on such claim

Digby wrote:

Spiffy wrote:Of all the scrum half skills, one is far and away ahead of all others - the ability to clear the ball quickly with a fast and accurate pass with no dithering around. ( This was about the only skill that Peter Stringer had, and he did OK.) If you do not have that skill, the others do not compensate. I don't think Young's has it.

Large numbers of very successful 9s don't clear anything like Stringer, and are much better players than Stringer into the bargain. So you'd have to question if passing really is that far ahead, reality rather intrudes on such claim

Only in the current era of excessive box-kicking, IMO.

Oakboy wrote:

Digby wrote:

Spiffy wrote:Of all the scrum half skills, one is far and away ahead of all others - the ability to clear the ball quickly with a fast and accurate pass with no dithering around. ( This was about the only skill that Peter Stringer had, and he did OK.) If you do not have that skill, the others do not compensate. I don't think Young's has it.

Large numbers of very successful 9s don't clear anything like Stringer, and are much better players than Stringer into the bargain. So you'd have to question if passing really is that far ahead, reality rather intrudes on such claim

Only in the current era of excessive box-kicking, IMO.

you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

Digby wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Digby wrote:

Large numbers of very successful 9s don't clear anything like Stringer, and are much better players than Stringer into the bargain. So you'd have to question if passing really is that far ahead, reality rather intrudes on such claim

Only in the current era of excessive box-kicking, IMO.

you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

I always rated Bracken a hell of a lot higher than Dawson. A scrum-half's raison d'etre is to get the ball to the fly-half quickly and accurately - anything on top of that is a bonus.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Only in the current era of excessive box-kicking, IMO.

you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

I always rated Bracken a hell of a lot higher than Dawson. A scrum-half's raison d'etre is to get the ball to the fly-half quickly and accurately - anything on top of that is a bonus.

Puja

I'd certainly prefer better passing, but any number of players and their teams have proved successful without really having passing as their core skill as a 9, so to claim that it's about passing vastly above all else just doesn't ring true.

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Only in the current era of excessive box-kicking, IMO.

you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

I always rated Bracken a hell of a lot higher than Dawson. A scrum-half's raison d'etre is to get the ball to the fly-half quickly and accurately - anything on top of that is a bonus.

Puja

Hear hear.
ASH with a weak pass is like a slow winger, a weak prop or a co fused FH. They can be as good as anything at playing rugby, but if they can't do their principal job, they'll never be anything beyond a place holder in my opinion.
Many coaches disagree

Digby wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Digby wrote:

Large numbers of very successful 9s don't clear anything like Stringer, and are much better players than Stringer into the bargain. So you'd have to question if passing really is that far ahead, reality rather intrudes on such claim

Only in the current era of excessive box-kicking, IMO.

you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

Old enough!!! Dors was there when Dickie Jeeps ran out for the first of his 24 caps

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:
you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

I always rated Bracken a hell of a lot higher than Dawson. A scrum-half's raison d'etre is to get the ball to the fly-half quickly and accurately - anything on top of that is a bonus.

Puja

I'd certainly prefer better passing, but any number of players and their teams have proved successful without really having passing as their core skill as a 9, so to claim that it's about passing vastly above all else just doesn't ring true.

It's certainly not impossible to be successful with a non-passing scrum-half, so you are correct that it's not *all* about passing, but the majority of it is. As an example, Dawson had all the tricks, but was a weaker 9 than Bracken, who had practically nothing but his pass.

Puja

I’d take Stringer ahead of Youngs. How old is he now? I bet he’d still smash Youngs on the bleep test.

Gomarsall had a great pass. And a reasonable kick as I recall. See, it can happen for England.

p/d wrote:

Digby wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Only in the current era of excessive box-kicking, IMO.

you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

Old enough!!! Dors was there when Dickie Jeeps ran out for the first of his 24 caps

I maintain that the big culprit SH for making box-kicking the default action was Robert Jones. I'd settle for Dawson ahead of Youngs any day of the week. Dawson managed the game well, allowing for all limitations - his and those around him.

And, yes, I am old.

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:
you must not be old enough to remember players like Justin Marshall and Mat Dawson

I always rated Bracken a hell of a lot higher than Dawson. A scrum-half's raison d'etre is to get the ball to the fly-half quickly and accurately - anything on top of that is a bonus.

Puja

I'd certainly prefer better passing, but any number of players and their teams have proved successful without really having passing as their core skill as a 9, so to claim that it's about passing vastly above all else just doesn't ring true.

Quite. Joost had a very ropey pass but was one of the best 9’s of the last 30 years.

Timbo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
I always rated Bracken a hell of a lot higher than Dawson. A scrum-half's raison d'etre is to get the ball to the fly-half quickly and accurately - anything on top of that is a bonus.

Puja

I'd certainly prefer better passing, but any number of players and their teams have proved successful without really having passing as their core skill as a 9, so to claim that it's about passing vastly above all else just doesn't ring true.

Quite. Joost had a very ropey pass but was one of the best 9’s of the last 30 years.

But he wasn't reluctant to pass quickly. It's as much about intent as skill. Getting the ball into the FH's hands as esrly as possible was his default action - his 90% choice, if you like. That gave him the surprise factor in running with it etc.

Youngs dithers. The point about Stringer was that his habit of passing instantly would be a good one for Youngs to copy.

Timbo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
I always rated Bracken a hell of a lot higher than Dawson. A scrum-half's raison d'etre is to get the ball to the fly-half quickly and accurately - anything on top of that is a bonus.

Puja

I'd certainly prefer better passing, but any number of players and their teams have proved successful without really having passing as their core skill as a 9, so to claim that it's about passing vastly above all else just doesn't ring true.

Quite. Joost had a very ropey pass but was one of the best 9’s of the last 30 years.

Joost had a ropey pass? I remember him as having a very good service and one of the reasons I rated him so highly.

Puja

Joost and Dawson were definately not the best passers for a 9. I do think that there's a difference between someone like Dawson whose pass was ok but was all round good than some of the England 9s over the past few years. Likewise, when I look at contemporary 9s, someone like e.g. Murray could surely have a better pass but it's not actually bad per se.

Bring back Shaun Perry, Dudley's pride.

I struggle to see what Youngs does well or, if we’re being kind, how we play to his strengths. When he first broke through he was a sniping scrum half who passed adequately and kicked fairly poorly. He’s now a kicking scrum half who kicks pretty well, if erratically, whose passing is poor to average and who rarely looks to snipe.

He just hasn’t kicked (no pun intended) on after looking class when he first broke through. Partly, I think it may be because he’s not a diligent trainer - the only reason I say this is his tendency to carry a bit too much weight but I may be way of base - but it also seems his instincts/strengths have been curbed at both club and international level. As I’ve said previously, if we want a 9 who primarily kicks or passes, with the occasional snipe, we might as well pick the Wiggler.

Mr Mwenda wrote:Joost and Dawson were definately not the best passers for a 9. I do think that there's a difference between someone like Dawson whose pass was ok but was all round good than some of the England 9s over the past few years. Likewise, when I look at contemporary 9s, someone like e.g. Murray could surely have a better pass but it's not actually bad per se.

Bring back Shaun Perry, Dudley's pride.

I *liked* Shaun Perry!

Puja

So did I, an inspiration to all. He also did have a decent pass and scored against the all blacks if i remember right.

Mellsblue wrote: As I’ve said previously, if we want a 9 who primarily kicks or passes, with the occasional snipe, we might as well pick the Wiggler.

Wiggler just seems to fit the game plan perfectly.

p/d wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: As I’ve said previously, if we want a 9 who primarily kicks or passes, with the occasional snipe, we might as well pick the Wiggler.

Wiggler just seems to fit the game plan perfectly.

Or persevere with Spencer.