England going forward

[Epaminondas Pules]

We clearly need new leadership because we lost a World Cup final. Last week our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final.

We lost. It’s proper shit. We’re all gutted, but we’ve done brilliantly and simply fell at the final hurdle. There is no need to alter things that had worked so well. We go again. We take the hurt and go again! Every successful side has done the same.

[Buggaluggs]

If you move on from Jones, who takes over that is better?

You could try Gatland. What couldn’t he do with your player resources.

That would literally be the Borg. You would assimilate all things. Win every game 9-3. Please. Don't.

[Buggaluggs]

We clearly need new leadership because we lost a World Cup final. Last week our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final.

We lost. It’s proper shit. We’re all gutted, but we’ve done brilliantly and simply fell at the final hurdle. There is no need to alter things that had worked so well. We go again. We take the hurt and go again! Every successful side has done the same.

Yeah, really. Nobody went undefeated. You lot, ABs and RSA each lost one game. It was just the timing of the loss that decided the outcome. If NZ had lost to RSA in the groups, they might be champs now. I'm enthusiastic about the rugby we're going to see in the next few years.

[Epaminondas Pules]

We clearly need new leadership because we lost a World Cup final. Last week our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final.

We lost. It’s proper shit. We’re all gutted, but we’ve done brilliantly and simply fell at the final hurdle. There is no need to alter things that had worked so well. We go again. We take the hurt and go again! Every successful side has done the same.

Yeah, really. Nobody went undefeated. You lot, ABs and RSA each lost one game. It was just the timing of the loss that decided the outcome. If NZ had lost to RSA in the groups, they might be champs now. I'm enthusiastic about the rugby we're going to see in the next few years.

Absolutely. From a purely selfish perspective almost everyone is young enough to make another World Cup. There’s a shit tonne of talent coming through, despite how we’ve now jeopardised that with an horrific restructure of youth rugby (but it’ll be 8 years before we feel that). The six nations is a few months away and we’ve got some seriously competitive matches to get stuck into.

[Buggaluggs]

Hopefully, all of us will be looking at the future with our 6Ns team selections. Should be an entertaining tournament

[Oakboy]

Was last week a "big game"?

On the day, yes, but in the context of the competition, no. The whole point, for me, is that Jones has done this before in the 6N - conjured up a good performance and then failed to follow it up in the next match.

Fricking marvellous, we beat NZ - fabulous game , wonderful entertainment and we are world beaters throughout the XV. Next match, nobody turns up.

I get criticised often for doubting Ford, for example, but where was he today? He might be gifted from the neck down but when it really mattered what did he do? Yes, we can claim he is better than Farrell but today he was total crap. Maybe, playing between Youngs and Farrell is too much. I don't know. But Jones got zilch from the three of them today when it really mattered.

[Mikey Brown]

Was last week a "big game"?

On the day, yes, but in the context of the competition, no. The whole point, for me, is that Jones has done this before in the 6N - conjured up a good performance and then failed to follow it up in the next match.

Fricking marvellous, we beat NZ - fabulous game , wonderful entertainment and we are world beaters throughout the XV. Next match, nobody turns up.

I get criticised often for doubting Ford, for example, but where was he today? He might be gifted from the neck down but when it really mattered what did he do? Yes, we can claim he is better than Farrell but today he was total crap. Maybe, playing between Youngs and Farrell is too much. I don't know. But Jones got zilch from the three of them today when it really mattered.

Certainly not a good game from him, but with a performance like that from 1-9 I don’t know what you can judge. What do you realistically think Farrell or Cipriani would have done today?

[Bloggs]

I’d be surprised if Manu doesn’t retire from internationals now. I’m sure I read a quote to suggest he would and may go to France next year

[Timbo]

I’d be surprised if Manu doesn’t retire from internationals now. I’m sure I read a quote to suggest he would and may go to France next year

I think that’ll be news to Tigers, he signed up 6 months ago for 2 more seasons.

[Scrumhead]

Was last week a "big game"?

On the day, yes, but in the context of the competition, no. The whole point, for me, is that Jones has done this before in the 6N - conjured up a good performance and then failed to follow it up in the next match.

Fricking marvellous, we beat NZ - fabulous game , wonderful entertainment and we are world beaters throughout the XV. Next match, nobody turns up.

I get criticised often for doubting Ford, for example, but where was he today? He might be gifted from the neck down but when it really mattered what did he do? Yes, we can claim he is better than Farrell but today he was total crap. Maybe, playing between Youngs and Farrell is too much. I don't know. But Jones got zilch from the three of them today when it really mattered.

What a ridiculous statement ... how can a World Cup semi final be anything other than a big game?

I agree that Youngs was ‘total crap’ though. His passing screwed up the precious little possession we did generate. Any 10 in world rugby would have struggled with that.

[Timbo]

If Jones and Mitchell are up for it I’d be happy to see them take us through to 2023. By the sounds we’ll need a few new coaches, which is probably no bad thing as it’ll be fresh ideas and pov.

Player-wise, it’s obviously impossible to predict how this squad will come back physically, injuries and where they are emotionally and in terms of motivation. All things being equal I would keep things broadly the same- this is a bloody good set of players, and 90% of them still should be at their peak in 4 years.

I would like to see changes happen a bit more organically than some of the other suggested squads in this thread (Obano, Ford-Robinson, Ibitoye, Malins etc nowhere near good enough imo) Probably need to get a couple of young 9’s involved, but I’d really want to see younger players tearing up trees rather than fast tracked.

[Mellsblue]

Was last week a "big game"?

On the day, yes, but in the context of the competition, no. The whole point, for me, is that Jones has done this before in the 6N - conjured up a good performance and then failed to follow it up in the next match.

Fricking marvellous, we beat NZ - fabulous game , wonderful entertainment and we are world beaters throughout the XV. Next match, nobody turns up.

I get criticised often for doubting Ford, for example, but where was he today? He might be gifted from the neck down but when it really mattered what did he do? Yes, we can claim he is better than Farrell but today he was total crap. Maybe, playing between Youngs and Farrell is too much. I don't know. But Jones got zilch from the three of them today when it really mattered.

What a ridiculous statement ... how can a World Cup semi final be anything other than a big game?

I agree that Youngs was ‘total crap’ though. His passing screwed up the precious little possession we did generate. Any 10 in world rugby would have struggled with that.

In Oakboy’s defence he did say consistently. We do consistently lose big games. Consistently not constantly.

As for singling out Ford for a bad game, he did but then so did everyone else. Seems strange to drop it on his head.

[Puja]

As for singling out Ford for a bad game, he did but then so did everyone else. Seems strange to drop it on his head.

May as well - we already know that that is exactly what the punditry and the average rugby fans will do:

Farrell rating 9 - Indefatigable in tough circumstances and was let down by everyone around him.
Ford rating 2 - Showed once again why he's not an international player and was solely responsible for our defeat. Needs to apologise to Owen for snatching a World Cup victory out of his hands.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

We clearly need new leadership because we lost a World Cup final. Last week our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final.

We lost. It’s proper shit. We’re all gutted, but we’ve done brilliantly and simply fell at the final hurdle. There is no need to alter things that had worked so well. We go again. We take the hurt and go again! Every successful side has done the same.

Did our awesome leadership get us to a final last week? News to me. I thought it’s because everyone played out of their skins. Leadership is at its most important at the difficult times and, for me, Farrell struggles with that part of captaincy. I’ve no doubt that he drives standards, sets a good example, motivates people and holds those who need it to account but on the field we’ve blown too many opportunities with him as capt. Being motivator-in-chief does not necessarily make a good capt. Nothing wrong with that and people as respected as O’Connell and Warburton say he’s a great leader but that doesn’t automatically make him a great captain on the rugby field. That he was taken off when everything was falling to pieces against Scotland says a lot, in my opinion. It’s also not as if Itoje is a left field choice. The bloke has a great record as captain.

[Scrumhead]

If Jones and Mitchell are up for it I’d be happy to see them take us through to 2023. By the sounds we’ll need a few new coaches, which is probably no bad thing as it’ll be fresh ideas and pov.

Player-wise, it’s obviously impossible to predict how this squad will come back physically, injuries and where they are emotionally and in terms of motivation. All things being equal I would keep things broadly the same- this is a bloody good set of players, and 90% of them still should be at their peak in 4 years.

I would like to see changes happen a bit more organically than some of the other suggested squads in this thread (Obano, Ford-Robinson, Ibitoye, Malins etc nowhere near good enough imo) Probably need to get a couple of young 9’s involved, but I’d really want to see younger players tearing up trees rather than fast tracked.

The group I posted was for players I think we should focus on developing. I wouldn’t be rushing Ibitoye or Malins. Obano is good to go IMO, although 3rd or 4th choice at this stage.

[Timbo]

It would be so typically English to get to a World Cup final with the best team we’ve had for 16 years- nearly all the players still in their peak- and start all over again with a new captain and coach.

[Epaminondas Pules]

We clearly need new leadership because we lost a World Cup final. Last week our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final.

We lost. It’s proper shit. We’re all gutted, but we’ve done brilliantly and simply fell at the final hurdle. There is no need to alter things that had worked so well. We go again. We take the hurt and go again! Every successful side has done the same.

Did our awesome leadership get us to a final last week? News to me. I thought it’s because everyone played out of their skins. Leadership is at its most important at the difficult times and, for me, Farrell struggles with that part of captaincy. I’ve no doubt that he drives standards, sets a good example, motivates people and holds those who need it to account but on the field we’ve blown too many opportunities with him as capt. Being motivator-in-chief does not necessarily make a good capt. Nothing wrong with that and people as respected as O’Connell and Warburton say he’s a great leader but that doesn’t automatically make him a great captain on the rugby field. That he was taken off when everything was falling to pieces against Scotland says a lot, in my opinion. It’s also not as if Itoje is a left field choice. The bloke has a great record as captain.

And of course the captain plays no part in that but does this week. Can’t have one without the other.

Out of interest, outside of age grade rugby what is Itoje’s record as captain? He’s got a great record apparently, so let’s hear it. Aside from 18 and 19 year olds what’s he done? Genuinely curious.

[Mellsblue]

It would be so typically English to get to a World Cup final with the best team we’ve had for 16 years- nearly all the players still in their peak- and start all over again with a new captain and coach.

Why? Ultimately they failed. I’d be happy to keep Jones as coach - he’s made mistakes, but less than most and he’s close to the top of his profession - but I think we can upgrade at captain. Given we rate our coach so highly and given his management style, changing captain after the RWC would be something straight out of his playbook. Continuity for continuity’s sake isn’t a good thing if you think you can make improvements.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It would be so typically English to get to a World Cup final with the best team we’ve had for 16 years- nearly all the players still in their peak- and start all over again with a new captain and coach.

Why? Ultimately they failed. I’d be happy to keep Jones as coach - he’s made mistakes, but less than most and he’s close to the top of his profession - but I think we can upgrade at captain. Given we rate our coach so highly and given his management style, changing captain after the RWC would be something straight out of his playbook. Continuity for continuity’s sake isn’t a good thing if you think you can make improvements.

New Zealand with McCaw, Saracens with Barritt. Both didn’t change captain and achieved huge success. It’s not as obvious as disliking someone and thus changing.

[Mellsblue]

We clearly need new leadership because we lost a World Cup final. Last week our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final.

We lost. It’s proper shit. We’re all gutted, but we’ve done brilliantly and simply fell at the final hurdle. There is no need to alter things that had worked so well. We go again. We take the hurt and go again! Every successful side has done the same.

Did our awesome leadership get us to a final last week? News to me. I thought it’s because everyone played out of their skins. Leadership is at its most important at the difficult times and, for me, Farrell struggles with that part of captaincy. I’ve no doubt that he drives standards, sets a good example, motivates people and holds those who need it to account but on the field we’ve blown too many opportunities with him as capt. Being motivator-in-chief does not necessarily make a good capt. Nothing wrong with that and people as respected as O’Connell and Warburton say he’s a great leader but that doesn’t automatically make him a great captain on the rugby field. That he was taken off when everything was falling to pieces against Scotland says a lot, in my opinion. It’s also not as if Itoje is a left field choice. The bloke has a great record as captain.

And of course the captain plays no part in that but does this week. Can’t have one without the other.

Out of interest, outside of age grade rugby what is Itoje’s record as captain? He’s got a great record apparently, so let’s hear it. Aside from 18 and 19 year olds what’s he done? Genuinely curious.

Who said Farrell didn’t play a part last week? I just disagreed with the assertion that ‘our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final’. I’ve just posted that I believe he’s a great leader off the pitch. However, on field I think he struggles when things aren’t going our way, which obviously isn’t applicable to last week.
I think dismissing captaining your country to the Junior World Cup as odd but....Itoje captained Sarries to the LV Cup whilst still an u20 player drawing praise from the international and senior players in the side. That I know of, he’s captained two sides and won the applicable tournament both times.
What is Farrell’s CV as captain? I honestly don’t know.
It will interesting to see who replaces Barritt at Sarries. That said, it might be someone like Wray.

[Mellsblue]

It would be so typically English to get to a World Cup final with the best team we’ve had for 16 years- nearly all the players still in their peak- and start all over again with a new captain and coach.

Why? Ultimately they failed. I’d be happy to keep Jones as coach - he’s made mistakes, but less than most and he’s close to the top of his profession - but I think we can upgrade at captain. Given we rate our coach so highly and given his management style, changing captain after the RWC would be something straight out of his playbook. Continuity for continuity’s sake isn’t a good thing if you think you can make improvements.

New Zealand with McCaw, Saracens with Barritt. Both didn’t change captain and achieved huge success. It’s not as obvious as disliking someone and thus changing.

Two examples. That’s that proved then. Different decisions for different situations - Johnson captained the Lions to a series win then a series loss. Proof we must change capt or we’ll regress? I don’t dislike Farrell. I think he’s over rated but only that I think he’s test class rather than world class. It is very strange that I think he’s not a great captain and therefore must dislike him. I think Farrell can and should still play a leadership role for England even if not captain.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Did our awesome leadership get us to a final last week? News to me. I thought it’s because everyone played out of their skins. Leadership is at its most important at the difficult times and, for me, Farrell struggles with that part of captaincy. I’ve no doubt that he drives standards, sets a good example, motivates people and holds those who need it to account but on the field we’ve blown too many opportunities with him as capt. Being motivator-in-chief does not necessarily make a good capt. Nothing wrong with that and people as respected as O’Connell and Warburton say he’s a great leader but that doesn’t automatically make him a great captain on the rugby field. That he was taken off when everything was falling to pieces against Scotland says a lot, in my opinion. It’s also not as if Itoje is a left field choice. The bloke has a great record as captain.

And of course the captain plays no part in that but does this week. Can’t have one without the other.

Out of interest, outside of age grade rugby what is Itoje’s record as captain? He’s got a great record apparently, so let’s hear it. Aside from 18 and 19 year olds what’s he done? Genuinely curious.

Who said Farrell didn’t play a part last week? I just disagreed with the assertion that ‘our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final’. I’ve just posted that I believe he’s a great leader off the pitch. However, on field I think he struggles when things aren’t going our way, which obviously isn’t applicable to last week.
I think dismissing captaining your country to the Junior World Cup as odd but....Itoje captained Sarries to the LV Cup whilst still an u20 player drawing praise from the international and senior players in the side. That I know of, he’s captained two sides and won the applicable tournament both times.
What is Farrell’s CV as captain? I honestly don’t know.
It will interesting to see who replaces Barritt at Sarries. That said, it might be someone like Wray.

That’s hardly a GREAT record is it. He’s captained age grade rugby and second string. The same record at age grade as Jack Clifford, albeit Itoje has transitioned to full international world class. He’s a very vocal player and a leader by deed, but a great record that’s applicable to international captaincy? I’m not seeing it. Or rather I’m not seeing an clear evidence that backs it other than him being hugely vocal.

Farrell’s record; well as a captain in a World Cup final for a start. How can you not know that, it has literally just happened today!! Are you a moron? Seriously? He was captain for this whole campaign. How did you not notice? Genuinely, how did you not notice that? It was kind of bloody obvious mate. He, tossed coins, did interviews and all sorts.

[Mellsblue]

And of course the captain plays no part in that but does this week. Can’t have one without the other.

Out of interest, outside of age grade rugby what is Itoje’s record as captain? He’s got a great record apparently, so let’s hear it. Aside from 18 and 19 year olds what’s he done? Genuinely curious.

Who said Farrell didn’t play a part last week? I just disagreed with the assertion that ‘our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final’. I’ve just posted that I believe he’s a great leader off the pitch. However, on field I think he struggles when things aren’t going our way, which obviously isn’t applicable to last week.
I think dismissing captaining your country to the Junior World Cup as odd but....Itoje captained Sarries to the LV Cup whilst still an u20 player drawing praise from the international and senior players in the side. That I know of, he’s captained two sides and won the applicable tournament both times.
What is Farrell’s CV as captain? I honestly don’t know.
It will interesting to see who replaces Barritt at Sarries. That said, it might be someone like Wray.

That’s hardly a GREAT record is it. He’s captained age grade rugby and second string. The same record at age grade as Jack Clifford, albeit Itoje has transitioned to full international world class. He’s a very vocal player and a leader by deed, but a great record that’s applicable to international captaincy? I’m not seeing it. Or rather I’m not seeing an clear evidence that backs it other than him being hugely vocal.

Farrell’s record; well as a captain in a World Cup final for a start. How can you not know that, it has literally just happened today!! Are you a moron? Seriously? He was captain for this whole campaign. How did you not notice? Genuinely, how did you not notice that? It was kind of bloody obvious mate. He, tossed coins, did interviews and all sorts.

Right. So we’ve regressed to the school play ground again. Good stuff.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Who said Farrell didn’t play a part last week? I just disagreed with the assertion that ‘our leadership was awesome to get us to a World Cup final’. I’ve just posted that I believe he’s a great leader off the pitch. However, on field I think he struggles when things aren’t going our way, which obviously isn’t applicable to last week.
I think dismissing captaining your country to the Junior World Cup as odd but....Itoje captained Sarries to the LV Cup whilst still an u20 player drawing praise from the international and senior players in the side. That I know of, he’s captained two sides and won the applicable tournament both times.
What is Farrell’s CV as captain? I honestly don’t know.
It will interesting to see who replaces Barritt at Sarries. That said, it might be someone like Wray.

That’s hardly a GREAT record is it. He’s captained age grade rugby and second string. The same record at age grade as Jack Clifford, albeit Itoje has transitioned to full international world class. He’s a very vocal player and a leader by deed, but a great record that’s applicable to international captaincy? I’m not seeing it. Or rather I’m not seeing an clear evidence that backs it other than him being hugely vocal.

Farrell’s record; well as a captain in a World Cup final for a start. How can you not know that, it has literally just happened today!! Are you a moron? Seriously? He was captain for this whole campaign. How did you not notice? Genuinely, how did you not notice that? It was kind of bloody obvious mate. He, tossed coins, did interviews and all sorts.

Right. So we’ve regressed to the school play ground again. Good stuff.

Well how the actual fuck can you not have noticed the England captain? Genuinely? You literally said “What is Farrell’s CV as captain”. That’s your own words. We were in a World Cup final a few hours ago with Farrell as the captain. Not noticing that is worrying.

[Mellsblue]

That’s hardly a GREAT record is it. He’s captained age grade rugby and second string. The same record at age grade as Jack Clifford, albeit Itoje has transitioned to full international world class. He’s a very vocal player and a leader by deed, but a great record that’s applicable to international captaincy? I’m not seeing it. Or rather I’m not seeing an clear evidence that backs it other than him being hugely vocal.

Farrell’s record; well as a captain in a World Cup final for a start. How can you not know that, it has literally just happened today!! Are you a moron? Seriously? He was captain for this whole campaign. How did you not notice? Genuinely, how did you not notice that? It was kind of bloody obvious mate. He, tossed coins, did interviews and all sorts.

Right. So we’ve regressed to the school play ground again. Good stuff.

Well how the actual fuck can you not have noticed the England captain? Genuinely? You literally said “What is Farrell’s CV as captain”. That’s your own words. We were in a World Cup final a few hours ago with Farrell as the captain. Not noticing that is worrying.

I’ve clearly noticed it. I cited it in numerous posts you’ve replied to. As a rule, a CV should include your experience prior to your current job - I was clearly asking about previous captaincy experience.