RugbyRebels

Adam_P wrote:As previously mentioned, the defensive softness was all mental with Mallinder. I believe a lot of the time when he was playing the season before last, when he really stood out as being a wet flannel, he had some kind of shoulder issue too. If he can be coached into enjoying the physical side of things defensively, at 6 foot 5 and 17 stone with all the skills of a fly half, he should be a very good option at 12. Agree with Mikey that is a very big 'if' though. We shall hopefully find out soon, he is due back this side of Christmas.

I know you acknowledge the 'if' in this post, but I don't think the defensive frailty being mental is encouraging. It's fair enough if he was (even subconsciously) guarding an injury, but I'd imagine it's far easier to teach somebody who is small or weak in the tackle to use better technique than to change someone's mindset to "enjoy the physical side of things" if they don't naturally do so.

Hopefully you're right and once he's confident about that shoulder he'll be throwing himself in to it.

jngf wrote:Aside from suggestions mentioned I would add:

1.We need to find more physically imposing locks rather than relying on shear athleticism alone - for me Lawes and Ewels and even Kruis are all a bit lightweight as starters - Itoje may be advised to consider challenging Billy’s berth at both Sarries and test level Launchbury has the right build but needs to get his mojo back and become a bit fiercer.

2. We need a more powerful blindside than Tom Curry imo - I’d be happy for him to switch roles with Underhill - though I also think Ludlum, S Simmonds,Wilson, Willis, B Curry, Kvesic and Jack Clifford (injury caveat accepted) could all still bring something fresh to flank combinations

Why do we need more power / physical players? And also where do they come from and are they any good? Launchbury is the heaviest and arguably least imposing of the four in the WC squad.

And why do we need a more powerful blindside? What does that give us? Underhill and Curry have been excellent.

Your young loosies have been the find of the year for you. Proper loosies, not big dull robots. You'd be mad to compromise that for the tired old matra of "big".

morepork wrote:Your young loosies have been the find of the year for you. Proper loosies, not big dull robots. You'd be mad to compromise that for the tired old matra of "big".

This!!! And especially as a result of a single game.

I'd also completely forgotten about Mallinder. What has been the issue with his shoulder? If that has any kind of lingering issue, the defensive mental frailty will only have gotten worse

morepork wrote:Your young loosies have been the find of the year for you. Proper loosies, not big dull robots. You'd be mad to compromise that for the tired old matra of "big".

Nahh bollocks, we need Haskell, Wood and Robshaw back toot sweet.

9 - Give Spencer the 6N's to see if he is up to it. A few minutes here and there doesnt help anyone to make a claim for the shirt. He's quick, a good support runner and can kick goals. He's ahead of the other contenders for me. I'd seriously consider bringing in Henry Taylor at Saints, who i really like the look of. Mitchell might come into the frame when he gets back. Maunder needs more time and to find a breaking game. Randall is very small but is quick witted and full of enterprise.
12 - We've been here before, i think. The question is moot if Ford and Farrell remain in situ, a situation that seems likely to continue as there really isnt an outstanding prospect pushing for selection. I had hopes of Johnny Williams breaking into the side but his recent health issues have put paid to that, plus he's now in the Championship. Devoto can look very impressive but breaks on a regular basis. If he was closer to 20 than 30 i'd bring in Mark Atkinson. Mallinder might come into consideration as he does have the skillset that could see him prosper, but he simply has to show far more physical resolution. If you just dont fancy the physical stuff, its difficult to make a case for selection. Ryan Mills is a tidy footballer but not quite at international level. I feel the same about Francis. Redpath is obviously on the radar and does look very promising.
15 - Play Watson there. Its that simple. There isn't a long list of candidates and its clear Daly isnt up to it.
We might also want to look at our back row options and identify a few players who might make the step up. Ted Hill, Jack Willis and Dombrandt are all players who should be under consideration.
In the front row we need to bring in a new TH to replace Cole. Go for a kid in Painer or Heyes or Stuart who is a little older? This is quite a tricky call, but new blood is required, as it will be on the other side to augment Mako and Genge. We might look at short term options such a Brookes, Cooper-Woolley and retaining Moon for another season.
At lock, Ewels should be in the mix and i'd put forward Ribbans as someone who seems to have the kind of game that could step up.

fivepointer wrote:9 - Give Spencer the 6N's to see if he is up to it. A few minutes here and there doesnt help anyone to make a claim for the shirt. He's quick, a good support runner and can kick goals. He's ahead of the other contenders for me. I'd seriously consider bringing in Henry Taylor at Saints, who i really like the look of. Mitchell might come into the frame when he gets back. Maunder needs more time and to find a breaking game. Randall is very small but is quick witted and full of enterprise.
12 - We've been here before, i think. The question is moot if Ford and Farrell remain in situ, a situation that seems likely to continue as there really isnt an outstanding prospect pushing for selection. I had hopes of Johnny Williams breaking into the side but his recent health issues have put paid to that, plus he's now in the Championship. Devoto can look very impressive but breaks on a regular basis. If he was closer to 20 than 30 i'd bring in Mark Atkinson. Mallinder might come into consideration as he does have the skillset that could see him prosper, but he simply has to show far more physical resolution. If you just dont fancy the physical stuff, its difficult to make a case for selection. Ryan Mills is a tidy footballer but not quite at international level. I feel the same about Francis. Redpath is obviously on the radar and does look very promising.
15 - Play Watson there. Its that simple. There isn't a long list of candidates and its clear Daly isnt up to it.
We might also want to look at our back row options and identify a few players who might make the step up. Ted Hill, Jack Willis and Dombrandt are all players who should be under consideration.
In the front row we need to bring in a new TH to replace Cole. Go for a kid in Painer or Heyes or Stuart who is a little older? This is quite a tricky call, but new blood is required, as it will be on the other side to augment Mako and Genge. We might look at short term options such a Brookes, Cooper-Woolley and retaining Moon for another season.
At lock, Ewels should be in the mix and i'd put forward Ribbans as someone who seems to have the kind of game that could step up.

Taylor and Atkinson? Another believer in the Goldington Rd Finishing School.

Peej wrote:I'd also completely forgotten about Mallinder. What has been the issue with his shoulder? If that has any kind of lingering issue, the defensive mental frailty will only have gotten worse

It's not his shoulder that has had him out for the last season, believe it's a knee that is responsible for that. But before the long term lay off reports were that he was struggling with something in his shoulder. Hopefully his year in the gym should have strengthened his shoulder plenty

I’d tried to hold back on this stuff recently, but never ever, ever even considering playing Ben Youngs again has to be top of the list.

Mikey Brown wrote:I’d tried to hold back on this stuff recently, but never ever, ever even considering playing Ben Youngs again has to be top of the list.

I desperately, even as a Tigers fan, want someone better than Youngs, but I’m struggling to name one that I think has a game that actually is a demonstrable overall improvement. That scares me. My hopes are on people like Randall, Maunder, Chaplin, Mitchell rather than many of the more experienced Prem scrum halves.

Robson looks probably the best bet. Spencer is proper hit and miss even behind this Saracens pack and erm...erm...yeah.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’d tried to hold back on this stuff recently, but never ever, ever even considering playing Ben Youngs again has to be top of the list.

I desperately, even as a Tigers fan, want someone better than Youngs, but I’m struggling to name one that I think has a game that actually is a demonstrable overall improvement. That scares me. My hopes are on people like Randall, Maunder, Chaplin, Mitchell rather than many of the more experienced Prem scrum halves.

Robson looks probably the best bet. Spencer is proper hit and miss even behind this Saracens pack and erm...erm...yeah.

Robson looks good and isn’t Youngs.

But surely we just have to find a pair who will be better in 4 years time, not now...

And then I have a nice list.

Stom wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’d tried to hold back on this stuff recently, but never ever, ever even considering playing Ben Youngs again has to be top of the list.

I desperately, even as a Tigers fan, want someone better than Youngs, but I’m struggling to name one that I think has a game that actually is a demonstrable overall improvement. That scares me. My hopes are on people like Randall, Maunder, Chaplin, Mitchell rather than many of the more experienced Prem scrum halves.

Robson looks probably the best bet. Spencer is proper hit and miss even behind this Saracens pack and erm...erm...yeah.

Robson looks good and isn’t Youngs.

But surely we just have to find a pair who will be better in 4 years time, not now...

And then I have a nice list.

That’s always a gamble. Who will be good in four years? Both Spencer and Robson are 27. Neither really sets the house on fire. I’d say Robson is the better but far from without faults. The rest are almost all unproven really and not even regular starters for their clubs. There’s a shit tonne of talented scrum halves coming through, but in the main their are 21 - 18 with very little experience of Prem rugby.

I’m not saying we should pick Youngs, but is there serious competition out there right now?

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Stom wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:
I desperately, even as a Tigers fan, want someone better than Youngs, but I’m struggling to name one that I think has a game that actually is a demonstrable overall improvement. That scares me. My hopes are on people like Randall, Maunder, Chaplin, Mitchell rather than many of the more experienced Prem scrum halves.

Robson looks probably the best bet. Spencer is proper hit and miss even behind this Saracens pack and erm...erm...yeah.

Robson looks good and isn’t Youngs.

But surely we just have to find a pair who will be better in 4 years time, not now...

And then I have a nice list.

That’s always a gamble. Who will be good in four years? Both Spencer and Robson are 27. Neither really sets the house on fire. I’d say Robson is the better but far from without faults. The rest are almost all unproven really and not even regular starters for their clubs. There’s a shit tonne of talented scrum halves coming through, but in the main their are 21 - 18 with very little experience of Prem rugby.

I’m not saying we should pick Youngs, but is there serious competition out there right now?

Well, I’d say Robson has the better form at AP level.

But he’s got like 90 caps and still does something insanely shit literally every single game. That isn’t even hyperbole.

Rotate through a handful of the most promising youngsters and surely one of them will show signs of ironing those errors out once they get settled in to international level.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: Who will be good in four years? Both Spencer and Robson are 27. Neither really sets the house on fire.

I agree that we don't have anyone who's obviously better, but we just don't know who would actually step upnif given training and playing time at international level.
We do know that Ben Young's is highly unlikely to be as good in 4 years time as he is now, and that he's currently (commonly considered) a/the weak link in the team.
He's currently 30, both FH optiins, and the backrow as a whole are established internationals. There's just no good reason for keeping Young's around, and if we can't bring a youngster in to link between Billy and Ford/Farrell now, then we'll never be able to, and expect Young's to still be going to 2023, 2027 and 2031 because we simply can't afford to try anyone else ever.

We've got to take a bit of a punt on one or two 9's, havent we?

What has been exasperating about the last couple of years is that Jones has stuck with Youngs, barely tried anyone else and has never brought in a youngster for a training squad. The SH position has been appallingly handled leading us to a duo at the WC of Youngs and Heinz. We cannot let this continue.

Give Spencer a proper go and invest time and effort on a younger player.

It’s such a shame Alex Mitchell got injured in the Barbarians game as he was looking really good. I’m not sure how much longer he’s out, but if he can return to similar form, he’s the one I’d be looking at with most interest.

While Mitchell is out, Henry Taylor has been a bit of a revelation. He always had talent, but he’d become a bit of a forgotten man, so it’s great to see him getting a decent run. Given that Reinach’s World Cup action was pretty limited, I’d expect him to be back in Saints colours in the next 2-3 weeks, but until then Taylor’s got a good opportunity to keep seizing his chance as a starter.

Reinach is reportedly off to Montpellier for next season so it would be great to have Mitchell and Taylor pushing each other.

Stuart Townsend’s not really had a mention and TBH, I’m not sure what I think of him? Baxter seems to rate him but I’ve never really seen him as better than OK.

I think there’s also a younger pipeline starting to emerge too.

Ollie Fox has looked a bit flaky when I’ve seen him play at U20 level but I thought he was looking fairly decent for Bath at the weekend.

Sam Wolstenholme at Wasps is interesting. He looks like he might have the ingredients to be a good player and a full year in the Championship last season seems to have given him a decent amount of confidence for a kid.

Which Tyler wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote: Who will be good in four years? Both Spencer and Robson are 27. Neither really sets the house on fire.

I agree that we don't have anyone who's obviously better, but we just don't know who would actually step upnif given training and playing time at international level.
We do know that Ben Young's is highly unlikely to be as good in 4 years time as he is now, and that he's currently (commonly considered) a/the weak link in the team.
He's currently 30, both FH optiins, and the backrow as a whole are established internationals. There's just no good reason for keeping Young's around, and if we can't bring a youngster in to link between Billy and Ford/Farrell now, then we'll never be able to, and expect Young's to still be going to 2023, 2027 and 2031 because we simply can't afford to try anyone else ever.

I wouldn’t disagree Which. I’m more struggling with who I’d take a punt on. I’d probably back Maunder the elder, though would also like a look at Randall. Either though is a gamble, but one I would take though probably with a more experienced hand to aid transition. Whether that is Youngs or say Robson I’m here nor there on. I’d arguably retain Youngs, much as it pains me, with Maunder, who I think has the higher potential.

Though I have very high hopes for Chaplin. His improvement over the last two seasons has been superb and will hopefully only get better. Best upcoming SH I’ve seen for a good while. Way too early for him yet.

I don’t really see what more Dan Robson can do. Prior to his health issue last season he’d been the most consistent 9 in the Prem for 2 years. He’s Wasps’ most important player, and is even captaining them at the moment.

He’s got a great skill set and is pretty athletic. Other than an opportunity I don’t really know what he’s missing.

Timbo wrote:I don’t really see what more Dan Robson can do. Prior to his health issue last season he’d been the most consistent 9 in the Prem for 2 years. He’s Wasps’ most important player, and is even captaining them at the moment.

He’s got a great skill set and is pretty athletic. Other than an opportunity I don’t really know what he’s missing.

Hair

Epaminondas Pules wrote:Though I have very high hopes for Chaplin. His improvement over the last two seasons has been superb and will hopefully only get better. Best upcoming SH I’ve seen for a good while. Way too early for him yet.

He needs a spell in the Limelight

(only Galfon and Dors will get this without googling I reckon )

Banquo wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:Though I have very high hopes for Chaplin. His improvement over the last two seasons has been superb and will hopefully only get better. Best upcoming SH I’ve seen for a good while. Way too early for him yet.

He needs a spell in the Limelight

(only Galfon and Dors will get this without googling I reckon )

you can be a right Charlie.

Banquo wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:Though I have very high hopes for Chaplin. His improvement over the last two seasons has been superb and will hopefully only get better. Best upcoming SH I’ve seen for a good while. Way too early for him yet.

He needs a spell in the Limelight

(only Galfon and Dors will get this without googling I reckon )

Probably the only two who don’t know what ‘googling’ is