Jones

[Banquo]

A couple of points to kick off with
He's not useless- he has the best win/loss record of any England coach in history at 78.3% by 6 percentage points; he won a GS and a 6N and got to a w/c semi, a step change on the previous two world cups. He's beaten NZ, which is rare for us.
He doesn't 'favour' programmed play any more than any other coach, he does what he thinks is best suited to the players he has.
And I'm not much of a Jones fan!

I'm slightly interested to see if from now Jones will start to try and do more with England. I can only conclude still we showed so little as he thought across the board, fitness, skills and decision making, we were much worse at rugby than teams he was used to in Oz or Japan. And it's possible we're now at what Eddie considers a base camp.

Also whilst technically true he got to a w/c semi he might claim more

Yep - and we have shown we can do more, normally in the first 5 minutes.

[Digby]

Interesting too, to me at least, that Eddie takes some stick for his prescribed team attack models whilst at the same time Joseph is a favourite of many to take the NZ job, I would assume there are are those who even hold both (contradictory) positions

[TheDasher]

My only concern with him is that he doesn't now lose a bit of drive for the task in hand. He'll either be more determined than ever or the anti-climax and effort required to build again will take the edge off him, that would be my concern.

If he can find some more good scrummaging props, a second no8 to push Billy, some more 9s and another 12, we'll be in better shape than ever.

[SixAndAHalf]

Jones has his flaws and has made mistakes. He's not perfect. But then no coach is. Expecting any coach to get everything right, every time, is unrealistic.
Yes, his handling of the 9 position in particular has been appalling. He has made some bad picks and invested time in players he shouldnt have.
But he has largely got selection right. He has given young players opportunities and arrived at a WC with a squad that few of us could find much fault in.
Some of the players he has backed have come good and are high quality international performers.
We leave the WC with the core of a fine squad that will see us through to the next one.
And we've been successful. GS and 6N's titles and a WC final appearance are substantial achievements. As Banquo points out his win ratio is impressive and unprecedented.
On balance, he's done well for England and at least deserves to stay for another year to see if he can move us forward.

I mostly agree with the above. I don't think there has been an easy solution that Jones has missed to our issues at 9/12. I think he has slightly mishandled Daly in moving him from the wing to 15 however.

I think Jones should be given at least the next two years but, as I've said on other threads, I do think the standards need to be higher than we accepted over the last 4 years (no more "judge me on the World Cup"):

1. Only losing 3 Six Nations games in the next four years
2. One loss each Autumn
3. Winning away tours (there may be exceptional circumstances that would be considered if Eddie fails on one of these)
4. identifying world class talent and building their experience (we should have done this with Curry for example rather than wasting caps on Shields)

The biggest issue for this team in my opinion is learning how to win in challenging circumstances (such as the scrum problem in the final) and the only way we can improve on that is by actually putting pressure on them to win games.

As an aside, I love the boldness of the original post - controversial opinions like "Jones out" breed good discussion!

[Digby]

My only concern with him is that he doesn't now lose a bit of drive for the task in hand. He'll either be more determined than ever or the anti-climax and effort required to build again will take the edge off him, that would be my concern.

If he can find some more good scrummaging props, a second no8 to push Billy, some more 9s and another 12, we'll be in better shape than ever.

Well yes, teams would be better if they could suddenly find 6 or 7 better players.

[TheDasher]

My only concern with him is that he doesn't now lose a bit of drive for the task in hand. He'll either be more determined than ever or the anti-climax and effort required to build again will take the edge off him, that would be my concern.

If he can find some more good scrummaging props, a second no8 to push Billy, some more 9s and another 12, we'll be in better shape than ever.

Well yes, teams would be better if they could suddenly find 6 or 7 better players.

Painful response. You get my point though right? Or not. If a main focus now is on scouting/moulding whatever the next cabs off the rank asap for those roles, and taking some chances on some new talent, it would be good.

[Digby]

My only concern with him is that he doesn't now lose a bit of drive for the task in hand. He'll either be more determined than ever or the anti-climax and effort required to build again will take the edge off him, that would be my concern.

If he can find some more good scrummaging props, a second no8 to push Billy, some more 9s and another 12, we'll be in better shape than ever.

Well yes, teams would be better if they could suddenly find 6 or 7 better players.

Painful response. You get my point though right? Or not. If a main focus now is on scouting/moulding whatever the next cabs off the rank asap for those roles, and taking some chances on some new talent, it would be good.

I don't tbh see why in the main we suddenly want to move past Mako, Sinckler and Billy. Some depth at 9 is important though if the gameplay doesn't change we could well stick with Youngs, 12, well I don't really know what he does at 12. Maybe he spends a year trying different things at 12, but if it keeps not working he could be out of the job ahead of the Jamboree tour

[TheDasher]

Well yes, teams would be better if they could suddenly find 6 or 7 better players.

Painful response. You get my point though right? Or not. If a main focus now is on scouting/moulding whatever the next cabs off the rank asap for those roles, and taking some chances on some new talent, it would be good.

I don't tbh see why in the main we suddenly want to move past Mako, Sinckler and Billy. Some depth at 9 is important though if the gameplay doesn't change we could well stick with Youngs, 12, well I don't really know what he does at 12. Maybe he spends a year trying different things at 12, but if it keeps not working he could be out of the job ahead of the Jamboree tour

Right - I said, another no8, not instead of Billy but a top level back-up/competitor. At prop, I'm not suggesting moving past them Mako and Sinck at all, I'm saying we need some more scrummagers. Those two are first choice, and whilst I love Genge, he's not a scrummager of the top level yet, so another couple of scrummaging props would be good. Re 9 - sod the gameplan, Youngs needs major competition, all I am asking is that he tries Robson, Spencer etc. And at 12, again, I said he needs to look hard for or create more options.

I'm saying what basically everyone else on this forum has been talking about day after day for a very long time.

[Digby]

Then we're back to how do we 'just' find comparable players then to Mako, Sinckler and Billy? And I agree he should look at other options at 9 and 12, but does that change the gameplay, and do we accept some 6N and summer/autumn campaigns might be less successful?

[TheDasher]

Then we're back to how do we 'just' find comparable players then to Mako, Sinckler and Billy? And I agree he should look at other options at 9 and 12, but does that change the gameplay, and do we accept some 6N and summer/autumn campaigns might be less successful?

Just like he took a chance on Curry, I hope he looks long and hard at every available prop in the prem, perhaps ignores their loose game, looks for scrummaging potential and takes a chance or two on some young talent and throws it into the squad. That's all I'm saying!

And jesus, no I don't think picking Robson and or Spencer in the squad and using them won't make the upcoming campaigns less successful, and there's no greater risk of that than changing any player, which is what you of course do sometimes in sport... Re 12, I'd like him to try some other players potentially yes.

All pretty uncontroversial from me here really...

[Tigersman]

If he really wanted Te'o and a hard runner at 12 I really don't know why he didn't look at Faz/Te'o/Joseph more when he had the chance. Some of the points are unfair but he was weirdly stubborn about quite a few areas.

What happened to Cipriani's goal kicking anyway?

He did give Farrell/Te'o/Slade the 2018 Autumn Internationals (when Joseph was injured, I think?) and it wasn't really his fault that Te'o was sh*t.

I'm not sure where the idea that Cipriani can't kick comes from. He doesn't kick for Glaws often as 12T is metronomic, but he's perfectly capable and I've seen him kick pressure kicks for England (vs NZ in 2014 as an example). I have issues with picking Cipriani for England, but goal-kicking isn't one of them.

Puja

I guess because he hasn't been a first choice kicker since he left Sale.

Since Eddie been in charged.
2018/19 - 71% (28 from 39)
2017/18 - 75% (37 from 49)
2016/17 - 68% (15 from 22)
2015/16 - 63% (78 from 123)

Ford and Farrell have both attempted more kicks in one than Cips has the past 3 seasons since Eddie has been in charge.

Ford numbers for example
2018/19 - 83% (98 from 117)
2017/18 - 80% (92 from 115)
2016/17 - 73% (79 from 107)
2015/16 - 74% (91 from 122)

[Digby]

Then we're back to how do we 'just' find comparable players then to Mako, Sinckler and Billy? And I agree he should look at other options at 9 and 12, but does that change the gameplay, and do we accept some 6N and summer/autumn campaigns might be less successful?

Just like he took a chance on Curry, I hope he looks long and hard at every available prop in the prem, perhaps ignores their loose game, looks for scrummaging potential and takes a chance or two on some young talent and throws it into the squad. That's all I'm saying!

And jesus, no I don't think picking Robson and or Spencer in the squad and using them won't make the upcoming campaigns less successful, and there's no greater risk of that than changing any player, which is what you of course do sometimes in sport... Re 12, I'd like him to try some other players potentially yes.

All pretty uncontroversial from me here really...

But Curry was good in advance of being picked. Whereas picking a tight five with less carrying and handling ruins the gameplay England have been setting up with, so do we try to change the attack, or go back to the tight five have a much more limited role and ditch Curry/Underhill and pick Dombrandt and another carrier?

Spencer isn't a million miles away from Youngs, and in advance looks very similar to me, so by all means add him for depth, but I don't know it'll change much, when I've watched Spencer his passing isn't always great but seems to be overlooked in a grass is greener on that side of the fence lets get Youngs out sort of way

I've some sympathy with the Youngs out thinking, I can't even remember how far back I wanted to move on from Youngs, but I would like to know what change is being sought, how it'll impact the gameplan and why it should/could work in advance.

[SixAndAHalf]

Painful response. You get my point though right? Or not. If a main focus now is on scouting/moulding whatever the next cabs off the rank asap for those roles, and taking some chances on some new talent, it would be good.

I don't tbh see why in the main we suddenly want to move past Mako, Sinckler and Billy. Some depth at 9 is important though if the gameplay doesn't change we could well stick with Youngs, 12, well I don't really know what he does at 12. Maybe he spends a year trying different things at 12, but if it keeps not working he could be out of the job ahead of the Jamboree tour

Right - I said, another no8, not instead of Billy but a top level back-up/competitor. At prop, I'm not suggesting moving past them Mako and Sinck at all, I'm saying we need some more scrummagers. Those two are first choice, and whilst I love Genge, he's not a scrummager of the top level yet, so another couple of scrummaging props would be good. Re 9 - sod the gameplan, Youngs needs major competition, all I am asking is that he tries Robson, Spencer etc. And at 12, again, I said he needs to look hard for or create more options.

I'm saying what basically everyone else on this forum has been talking about day after day for a very long time.

Re props, why would we move on from Marler and Cole and their combined 160 caps of experience? Marler in particular is theoretically coming into his peak years and although he did retire when you hear him speak I wonder was it partially a mental health thing and a temporary measure. He should definitely be a core player for us moving forwards.

I know Cole had a tough day at the office against South Africa but he was generally fairly impressive at the World Cup and doesn't appear the type to retire. There are plenty of props who have been effective into their mid thirties so I'd like the likes of Stuart and Heyes to take his position on form.

[Banquo]

Its not like Eddie hasn't had a good look at props either, at least 9 from memory have had (plenty of) game time, and possibly more.

[fivepointer]

Marler will step down, wont he? I assumed he only came back for the WC. If he's available, then of course pick him but i thought he would be retiring.
Cole was a little fortunate to go to the WC. Age isnt on his side and a prop who offers so little outside of the scrum is now a rarity.
Williams is in very good form for Exeter and should come back in along with one of the younger players.

[Mikey Brown]

Marler will step down, wont he? I assumed he only came back for the WC. If he's available, then of course pick him but i thought he would be retiring.

It wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think anything has been said about it. It may be one of those things where simply airing his anxiety around playing for England has actually helped a lot, but it may still come down to not seeing his kids enough.

[Bonzo]

One thing I dislike about EJ is the massive churn in his coaching and back-room staff. Seems that his abrasiveness and demands that everyone gets by on 3 hours sleep a night wears thin with a lot of people.

His mandate was to get England into the top 2 in the world (he has done ok at that, while missing the target) and to develop (an) English successor(s) to hand over to. Seems to me he has largely failed to meet the second part, with the likes of Gustard and Teague jumping ship for example. Yes, Borthwick, Hatley. But they aren't about to step into head coach roles. Looks like he gave up on that part of his job and grabbed Wisemantel / threw a ton of the RFU's cash at Mitchell in order to focus on objective 1.

Separate point, but my opinion is that Tier 1 countries should have a coaching staff that conforms to the same qualification rules as the players. I reckon developing coaches is as much a part of the "Test" of international rugby as developing players.

[TheDasher]

Marler will step down, wont he? I assumed he only came back for the WC. If he's available, then of course pick him but i thought he would be retiring.
Cole was a little fortunate to go to the WC. Age isnt on his side and a prop who offers so little outside of the scrum is now a rarity.
Williams is in very good form for Exeter and should come back in along with one of the younger players.

I thought Marler was stepping down too, hence why I said (wish I hadn't) that Eddie should look at finding more talented young scrummagers. Marler is class, if he can be picked, then great.

[TheDasher]

Then we're back to how do we 'just' find comparable players then to Mako, Sinckler and Billy? And I agree he should look at other options at 9 and 12, but does that change the gameplay, and do we accept some 6N and summer/autumn campaigns might be less successful?

Just like he took a chance on Curry, I hope he looks long and hard at every available prop in the prem, perhaps ignores their loose game, looks for scrummaging potential and takes a chance or two on some young talent and throws it into the squad. That's all I'm saying!

And jesus, no I don't think picking Robson and or Spencer in the squad and using them won't make the upcoming campaigns less successful, and there's no greater risk of that than changing any player, which is what you of course do sometimes in sport... Re 12, I'd like him to try some other players potentially yes.

All pretty uncontroversial from me here really...

But Curry was good in advance of being picked. Whereas picking a tight five with less carrying and handling ruins the gameplay England have been setting up with, so do we try to change the attack, or go back to the tight five have a much more limited role and ditch Curry/Underhill and pick Dombrandt and another carrier?

Spencer isn't a million miles away from Youngs, and in advance looks very similar to me, so by all means add him for depth, but I don't know it'll change much, when I've watched Spencer his passing isn't always great but seems to be overlooked in a grass is greener on that side of the fence lets get Youngs out sort of way

I've some sympathy with the Youngs out thinking, I can't even remember how far back I wanted to move on from Youngs, but I would like to know what change is being sought, how it'll impact the gameplan and why it should/could work in advance.

I know Curry was good in advance of being picked. My point was, Eddie could've selected quite a few different flankers, but he went with Curry which wasn't regarded as the obvious option necessarily, I simply meant he could do the same at prop.

And again, re the gameplan, I'm not saying we pick scrummaging, non-carrying props instead of Sinkler and Mako... I simply said, it'd be good for him to unearth a great scrummager or two... as two of our roster Mako and Genge are not the strongest here.

Re Youngs. I've always liked him, but again, we need to see more options in the shirt, that's all I'm saying.

[Puja]

One thing I dislike about EJ is the massive churn in his coaching and back-room staff. Seems that his abrasiveness and demands that everyone gets by on 3 hours sleep a night wears thin with a lot of people.

His mandate was to get England into the top 2 in the world (he has done ok at that, while missing the target) and to develop (an) English successor(s) to hand over to. Seems to me he has largely failed to meet the second part, with the likes of Gustard and Teague jumping ship for example. Yes, Borthwick, Hatley. But they aren't about to step into head coach roles. Looks like he gave up on that part of his job and grabbed Wisemantel / threw a ton of the RFU's cash at Mitchell in order to focus on objective 1.

Separate point, but my opinion is that Tier 1 countries should have a coaching staff that conforms to the same qualification rules as the players. I reckon developing coaches is as much a part of the "Test" of international rugby as developing players.

That's a concern of mine too, especially with news that both Wisemantel and Borthwick are leaving now that the RWC is done. He does seem to be hard to deal with.

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

Marler will step down, wont he? I assumed he only came back for the WC. If he's available, then of course pick him but i thought he would be retiring.
Cole was a little fortunate to go to the WC. Age isnt on his side and a prop who offers so little outside of the scrum is now a rarity.
Williams is in very good form for Exeter and should come back in along with one of the younger players.

If Williams plays well and earns his place in the squad then I'm all for that - I think the competition between him and Cole should spur them both on and is one of the reasons I am against simply jettisoning players for age reasons.

The House of Rugby podcast with Marler was fairly illuminating - I'm hopeful he will carry on.

[Tigersman]

I mean what is Eddie's churn?
Permanent coaches
Forwards
Steve Borthwick 2015 - 2019 (?)

Defence
Paul Gustard --------> 2015 - 2018
John Mitchell -------> 2018 - ?

Attack
Rory Teague ---------> 2015-2017
Scott Wisemantel ---> 2018 - (?) Rumour is Aus are wanting him for attack coach but he also rejected the Tahs head coach job.

So only 2 permanent coach had left during Eddie's 4 years and that was for a Prem Head coach job and a Top 14 manager job (Which he got fired from soon enough).

Borthwick rumoured to be Tigers Head Coach also.
I don't really see that as Eddie being hard on his coaches, more that most of the leavers have gone a step up into management which is something they would need to do for a potential England head coach role surely? I don't see the RFU giving a management job to someone who has never actually done the managing part before.

Borthwick and Gustard are putting themselves up front and centre for after Eddie IMO 4 or so years as a prem head coach with International coach experience on top of that makes you more appealing than most others.

[Banquo]

I mean what is Eddie's churn?
Permanent coaches
Forwards
Steve Borthwick 2015 - 2019 (?)

Defence
Paul Gustard --------> 2015 - 2018
John Mitchell -------> 2018 - ?

Attack
Rory Teague ---------> 2015-2017
Scott Wisemantel ---> 2018 - (?) Rumour is Aus are wanting him for attack coach but he also rejected the Tahs head coach job.

So only 2 permanent coach had leave during Eddie's 4 years and that was for a Prem Head coach job and a Top 14 manager job (Which he got fired from soon enough).

Borthwick rumoured to be Tigers Head Coach also.
I don't really see that as Eddie being hard on his coaches, more that most of the leavers have gone a step up into management which is something they would need to do for a potential England head coach role surely? I don't see the RFU giving a mangement job to someone who has never actually done the managing part before.

Borthwick and Gustard are putting themselves up front and centre for after Eddie IMO 4 or so years as a prem head coach with International coach experience on top of that makes you more appealing than most others.

good work.

[Oakboy]

As a measure of Jones's success, it will be interesting to see how many offers of employment he gets and whether any tempt him. It will also be interesting to see how many top assistant coaches are clamouring to work with him.

Another point that I'd love to hear about is his (future) ambassadorial role in the Saracens business. Assuming that he has reasonably close relationships with Farrell, Mako, Billy, Kruis, Itoje etc., what will he be advising about how they nurture their international careers? He has to deal with the issue, especially in the light of direct business links within the alleged renumeration cheating.

Jones as a diplomat is quite a thought!

[SixAndAHalf]

I mean what is Eddie's churn?
Permanent coaches
Forwards
Steve Borthwick 2015 - 2019 (?)

Defence
Paul Gustard --------> 2015 - 2018
John Mitchell -------> 2018 - ?

Attack
Rory Teague ---------> 2015-2017
Scott Wisemantel ---> 2018 - (?) Rumour is Aus are wanting him for attack coach but he also rejected the Tahs head coach job.

So only 2 permanent coach had leave during Eddie's 4 years and that was for a Prem Head coach job and a Top 14 manager job (Which he got fired from soon enough).

Borthwick rumoured to be Tigers Head Coach also.
I don't really see that as Eddie being hard on his coaches, more that most of the leavers have gone a step up into management which is something they would need to do for a potential England head coach role surely? I don't see the RFU giving a mangement job to someone who has never actually done the managing part before.

Borthwick and Gustard are putting themselves up front and centre for after Eddie IMO 4 or so years as a prem head coach with International coach experience on top of that makes you more appealing than most others.

Agreed and I think it is a necessary step in achieving Eddie's aim of having an England coach replace him.

Ideally you want a coach who has international head coaching experience which means that Farrell is currently the most realistic English option (if you exclude Lancaster...) to replace Eddie assuming he does a good job with Ireland.

A realistic career path to put Borthwick in contention would be 2 years at Tigers and then taking Japan to the next World Cup (I think he is well regarded there) as Head Coach.

Baxter and Gustard are other English options but I would like them to get head coaching experience outside of the Premiership first. I don't know if Baxter actually wants the job but if he did the Georgia job would be a good fit for him in my opinion.

Sanderson I think is a one for 2027 as a Head Coach but he could be a good option to replace Borthwick to get him a taste of an international environment.