Re: Bath vs Saracens (Friday 19:45 - BT Sport)
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:26 pm
well this has gotten nasty hasn't it. Both Brown and Wilson going for the eyes there.
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The initial infringement is Ashton running a blocking line. Anything that happens after that is wholly dependant on Ashton's action. Technically, it's a red but technically there have been three or four not straight throw ins.Which Tyler wrote:Have to say, the red was harsh but technically correct. Ashton didn't change his line, he was always on a blocking line, he also didn't push Watson, but the collision was so close to Goode he was straight in with no ability to change his own line and get out of it. Unsympathetic, but correct under the current laws.
Yellow seems absolutely correct and just a hot head under huge pressure. Hips above shoulders =yellow. (Cook also cost us the first try, with a pass to no-pne costing us 40m, and then the kick to Ashton in space)
The Goode penalty was also harsh IMO, I initially thought he'd dropped his shoulder, but the reverse angle showed that to be wrong.
I'm not enjoying this match.
I didn't see the game or the incident but this is one of my favourite sentences ever.Peej wrote:Bath are falling apart.
Yes his legs go above the horizontal but that's physics. I don't want to see tackles that bring guys down on their backs or sides punished - I do want to see those that turn guys as they lift and drink email them down onto their heads. Like the spear tackles used to be officiated
It's a classicMikey Brown wrote:I didn't see the game or the incident but this is one of my favourite sentences ever.Peej wrote:Bath are falling apart.
Yes his legs go above the horizontal but that's physics. I don't want to see tackles that bring guys down on their backs or sides punished - I do want to see those that turn guys as they lift and drink email them down onto their heads. Like the spear tackles used to be officiated
I'm not sure about the Watson card. I've no problem with Ashton's line, but I'm not sure when Watson then stumbles from contact with Ashton that we're arriving at the correct decision. I'd be inclined to think it accidental and let it go, that would be a fair red card had Watson run into Goode without any contact just prior, as is I feel uncomfortable with the decision. However the decision is made on the outcome which is then odd as for the Cook yellow I think the player comes down flat, yes the leg has been lifted but for me the player comes down in a safe enough position. Okay Cook is a very lucky boy that Houston gets in there to stop a player coming down on his shoulder, else Cook could easily have seen red, but the Cook one seems a red card for process and he ends up with a yellow when it's a safe outcome, whereas the Watson I'm not sure is an anything for the process but ends with a red for the outcome.Which Tyler wrote:Have to say, the red was harsh but technically correct. Ashton didn't change his line, he was always on a blocking line, he also didn't push Watson, but the collision was so close to Goode he was straight in with no ability to change his own line and get out of it. Unsympathetic, but correct under the current laws.
Yellow seems absolutely correct and just a hot head under huge pressure. Hips above shoulders =yellow. (Cook also cost us the first try, with a pass to no-pne costing us 40m, and then the kick to Ashton in space)
The Goode penalty was also harsh IMO, I initially thought he'd dropped his shoulder, but the reverse angle showed that to be wrong.
I'm not enjoying this match.
Finn Russell took a final hesitant step, which whilst I feel too harsh a margin to be judging someone by for a red card was a final step into the space Biggar was closing on. If they want to go on outcome for the Goode incident today they should for me issue a red card to Ashton as well as Watson, both were culpable for what happened to Goode though neither intended it, and it'd have the added benefit of not unbalancing the game by refereeWhich Tyler wrote:Remember Finn Russell's red card for obeying the laws of physics whilst Biggar jumps on him?
These days, safe landings are dictated by outcome, not intent, and it feels wrong every time. Basically, the laws is an ass, but it's still the law.
I guess it got this bad as the previous incarnation wasn't preventing incidents, not that the new one is either.
I don't see how you can blame Ashton for it. Yes, he ran across Watson, but Watson was charging through no matter what - Ashton didn't add any momentum to Watson (heck, he even took some away). It wasn't a case of Goode jumping into Watson or Ashton forcing Watson to engage early - Watson mistimed his contest and, while Ashton may have unbalanced him, he was always going to end up under Goode regardless.Digby wrote:Finn Russell took a final hesitant step, which whilst I feel too harsh a margin to be judging someone by for a red card was a final step into the space Biggar was closing on. If they want to go on outcome for the Goode incident today they should for me issue a red card to Ashton as well as Watson, both were culpable for what happened to Goode though neither intended it, and it'd have the added benefit of not unbalancing the game by refereeWhich Tyler wrote:Remember Finn Russell's red card for obeying the laws of physics whilst Biggar jumps on him?
These days, safe landings are dictated by outcome, not intent, and it feels wrong every time. Basically, the laws is an ass, but it's still the law.
I guess it got this bad as the previous incarnation wasn't preventing incidents, not that the new one is either.
I don't blame Ashton, then again I don't blame Watson for it given he was stumbling after contact with Ashton. I think it was unfortunate but accidental, but if we're going to give red cards for bad outcomes that are accidental then everyone involved should be treated equally.Puja wrote:I don't see how you can blame Ashton for it. Yes, he ran across Watson, but Watson was charging through no matter what - Ashton didn't add any momentum to Watson (heck, he even took some away). It wasn't a case of Goode jumping into Watson or Ashton forcing Watson to engage early - Watson mistimed his contest and, while Ashton may have unbalanced him, he was always going to end up under Goode regardless.Digby wrote:Finn Russell took a final hesitant step, which whilst I feel too harsh a margin to be judging someone by for a red card was a final step into the space Biggar was closing on. If they want to go on outcome for the Goode incident today they should for me issue a red card to Ashton as well as Watson, both were culpable for what happened to Goode though neither intended it, and it'd have the added benefit of not unbalancing the game by refereeWhich Tyler wrote:Remember Finn Russell's red card for obeying the laws of physics whilst Biggar jumps on him?
These days, safe landings are dictated by outcome, not intent, and it feels wrong every time. Basically, the laws is an ass, but it's still the law.
I guess it got this bad as the previous incarnation wasn't preventing incidents, not that the new one is either.
Puja
For me Watson stumbled in to Goode in an uncontrolled manner due to his collision with Ashton. Whether or not you think Ashton is running a blocking line - and I seem to be in a minority of one that he did - the clash causes Watson to stumble into Goode. By the letter of the law it's a red for Watson but the law is wrong to noy differentiate between intentional and unintentional acts.Digby wrote:I don't blame Ashton, then again I don't blame Watson for it given he was stumbling after contact with Ashton. I think it was unfortunate but accidental, but if we're going to give red cards for bad outcomes that are accidental then everyone involved should be treated equally.Puja wrote:I don't see how you can blame Ashton for it. Yes, he ran across Watson, but Watson was charging through no matter what - Ashton didn't add any momentum to Watson (heck, he even took some away). It wasn't a case of Goode jumping into Watson or Ashton forcing Watson to engage early - Watson mistimed his contest and, while Ashton may have unbalanced him, he was always going to end up under Goode regardless.Digby wrote:
Finn Russell took a final hesitant step, which whilst I feel too harsh a margin to be judging someone by for a red card was a final step into the space Biggar was closing on. If they want to go on outcome for the Goode incident today they should for me issue a red card to Ashton as well as Watson, both were culpable for what happened to Goode though neither intended it, and it'd have the added benefit of not unbalancing the game by referee
Puja
I'd guess most would think Ashton is running a blocking line, what else would he be doing, but he didn't seem to move off his line so he's fine. I'd prefer they look at intentional and/or reckless Vs accidental acts allied to outcomes though I can see why it's easier for refs to judge on outcome, but I don't then see if we're judging on outcome why Cook gets a yellow, the tackled player came down heavily but for me safely enough in what is a heavy contact sportMellsblue wrote:
For me Watson stumbled in to Goode in an uncontrolled manner due to his collision with Ashton. Whether or not you think Ashton is running a blocking line - and I seem to be in a minority of one that he did - the clash causes Watson to stumble into Goode. By the letter of the law it's a red for Watson but the law is wrong to noy differentiate between intentional and unintentional acts.
Apologies, auto correct has ruined me here!p/d wrote:It's a classicMikey Brown wrote:I didn't see the game or the incident but this is one of my favourite sentences ever.Peej wrote:Bath are falling apart.
Yes his legs go above the horizontal but that's physics. I don't want to see tackles that bring guys down on their backs or sides punished - I do want to see those that turn guys as they lift and drink email them down onto their heads. Like the spear tackles used to be officiated
You can run a blocking line without moving off said line. You see it in midfield all the time with players pinged for running into defenders without deviating.Digby wrote:I'd guess most would think Ashton is running a blocking line, what else would he be doing, but he didn't seem to move off his line so he's fine. I'd prefer they look at intentional and/or reckless Vs accidental acts allied to outcomes though I can see why it's easier for refs to judge on outcome, but I don't then see if we're judging on outcome why Cook gets a yellow, the tackled player came down heavily but for me safely enough in what is a heavy contact sportMellsblue wrote:
For me Watson stumbled in to Goode in an uncontrolled manner due to his collision with Ashton. Whether or not you think Ashton is running a blocking line - and I seem to be in a minority of one that he did - the clash causes Watson to stumble into Goode. By the letter of the law it's a red for Watson but the law is wrong to noy differentiate between intentional and unintentional acts.
Especially having promised us straight feeds in the scrum. Left to me the entire board of World Rugby would be fired with no compensation for such dereliction of duty, which might actually focus their minds to do what they said they'd do, as is there seems too little accountability for refs taking it on themselves to ignore huge chunks of the lawsMellsblue wrote:I find it so strange that officials are in such a straight jacket in these areas and are free to interpret and flat out ignore laws in other areas.
Watching on TV you could tell the crowd were getting wound up. It was quite good fun and seemed quite good natured for the most part.WiganShark wrote:Fan allegedly got into refs changing room and verbally abused Greg Garner, tweeted by Flats but I cant find it. Also Flats, Nick Mullens not at all happy with the Bath fans after the game and the verbal abuse of the officials. This reported on various boards. What disciplinary action might there be if found to be true?
Agreed. I said during the game that non-straight lineouts were ignored whilst being pedantic over other areas.Digby wrote:Especially having promised us straight feeds in the scrum. Left to me the entire board of World Rugby would be fired with no compensation for such dereliction of duty, which might actually focus their minds to do what they said they'd do, as is there seems too little accountability for refs taking it on themselves to ignore huge chunks of the lawsMellsblue wrote:I find it so strange that officials are in such a straight jacket in these areas and are free to interpret and flat out ignore laws in other areas.
What is the makeup of the panel that (mis)manage the laws and their application?Digby wrote:Especially having promised us straight feeds in the scrum. Left to me the entire board of World Rugby would be fired with no compensation for such dereliction of duty, which might actually focus their minds to do what they said they'd do, as is there seems too little accountability for refs taking it on themselves to ignore huge chunks of the lawsMellsblue wrote:I find it so strange that officials are in such a straight jacket in these areas and are free to interpret and flat out ignore laws in other areas.
50% port abusers, 50% gin abusers?Mellsblue wrote: What is the makeup of the panel that (mis)manage the laws and their application?