Oakboy wrote:I don't give a toss about Burgess but I still have reservations about George Ford which puts me at odds with most on here. What I do not understand is his application of his skill-set and its interpretation by this board on the one hand and rugby punditry on the other. Why do most on here want him at 10 ahead of Farrell when, just this week, all the pundits in the DT (half a fozen or so) picked Farrell in their Lions XV? Nobody even mentioned Ford.
Did Ford stop speaking to Burgess? Who gives a monkey's foreskin now? But, is there a tiny smidgeon of doubt about Ford's team ethic? Might that account for his status in punditry's rating?
It's the old Ford/Farrell thing. Will it only go away when both are off the scene? I think I look forward to that, if only so that we have a playmaker who has no high-profile paternal coaching influence.
Most rugby pundits are pretty clueless and, with some exceptions, the general standard of rugby reporting is awful IMO.
As for Barnes, Lord Bald, McGeechan etc. can you honestly tell me that you read/listen to what they say without regularly thinking WTAF?
Generally speaking, I value opinions on this board far more highly than most press utterances. The F v F situation, though, remains a strange anomaly because punditry sides with all the coaching expertise that has had to choose between the two. I suppose Farrell at 12, to an extent, supports both viewpoints. Even that mystifies me (because I simply do not rate Farrell at IC) but I'll drift on in my usual haze of ignorance.
Rugby has an odd mix of professionalism and amateurism. So many coaches are looking for players to carry out their instructions to the letter while also having that mythical character the amateurs dreamt of.
Farrell ticks those boxes because he’s willing to execute a gamelan no matter what happens and also shouts a lot,
Ford on the other hand plays what’s in front of him a lot more, so diverted from the gamelan, while not being “inspirational”.
He also doesn’t have photos of his coach in compromising positions.
Who knew Farrell could play the gamelan? I never thought he’d be in to Balinese percussion instruments.
I agree with your comments, although I’d also say there’s an argument to say that Ford has become more ‘pre-programmed’ in an England jersey in recent(ish) times.
I'd grant Ford has a slight edge reading a defensive line, making late(r) decisions and executing a better handling and kicking game from hand. But I don't get the impression Ford isn't playing taking into account the structure his coach details to him, both rely (not unreasonably in the round) on their systems.
Digby wrote:Burgess was utter shite in attack against Wales, but so were Farrell and Barritt, and Burgess has the excuse he was a bad flanker picked at 12. I still think it's a shame Burgess didn't come earlier to play 6 or stick around to play 6, because he certainly had ability
Oh **** me, did we pick Barritt at 13?
As seen here as the last man on the defensive line:
A pretty decent 12, but an absolutely dire 13 with absolutely no idea how to position himself in defence in the wide channels. Just watching him continue to press up, despite the clear overlap, even after the pass has clearly beaten him, makes my brain hurt.
Burgess didn't lose us the game - picking both him and Barritt did. As soon as Joseph was ruled out, we should have picked Slade rather than worrying about Wales being a bit big and regressing to Farrel plus our biggest possible midfield.
Puja
There's another shining example at the 4min mark of that video.
I had largely blocked 2015 out of my memory for a variety of reasons. So **** Burgess for bringing it back up yet again.
Mellsblue wrote:
Geech and SCW are yesterday’s men. By example, allegedly, a lot of issues at Leeds/Yorkshire, both on and off the field, had Geech’s involvement to varying degrees.
Oh, this sounds like an interesting story. I used to like going to see Leeds Carnegie as they were back then. Where can I read about this?
Mellsblue wrote:
Geech and SCW are yesterday’s men. By example, allegedly, a lot of issues at Leeds/Yorkshire, both on and off the field, had Geech’s involvement to varying degrees.
Oh, this sounds like an interesting story. I used to like going to see Leeds Carnegie as they were back then. Where can I read about this?
Local grapevine and smoke signals old boy. Come oop to N Yorks and sit in my clubhouse one day and they’ll regale you..... in exchange for a pint or two, obvs, it’s deepest darkest Yorkshire. I’ll translate for you but I only understand 80% of it myself.
Iirc, the obvious bits are his last stint as HC went pretty terribly when considering the quality in the squad and led to many thinking they would rather save their cash and time and head to good quality community clubs, - Wharfedale, Otley etc. He was central to/figurehead when the name was changed to Yorkshire.... which annoyed the traditional supporters and just pissed off the rest of Yorkshire, ie it lost a lot of goodwill. I believe he was also central to/figurehead for some big investments from local money men which went pop spectacularly last season - see unconfirmed rumours thread. Plenty of other less, erm, verified stories, too, which I’ve lost in the haze of beer and time.
Danno wrote:
Oh **** me, did we pick Barritt at 13?
As seen here as the last man on the defensive line:
A pretty decent 12, but an absolutely dire 13 with absolutely no idea how to position himself in defence in the wide channels. Just watching him continue to press up, despite the clear overlap, even after the pass has clearly beaten him, makes my brain hurt.
Burgess didn't lose us the game - picking both him and Barritt did. As soon as Joseph was ruled out, we should have picked Slade rather than worrying about Wales being a bit big and regressing to Farrel plus our biggest possible midfield.
Puja
There's another shining example at the 4min mark of that video.
I had largely blocked 2015 out of my memory for a variety of reasons. So **** Burgess for bringing it back up yet again.
Haha, wow. I hadn't seen that one, but that is a belter. It starts off with this:
Capture.PNG
Where Wales have played off the top in a lineout and our defensive line has done... something. Farrell has charged up on a blitz, but Burgess has not gone with him and so neither has Barritt. Speaking of Barritt, he appears to be actively pretending he's still playing 12 and so has his eyes and perspective firmly on the opposition 10, with nary a glance at the outside backs and the massive space he's leaving. His positioning was too narrow before the play started and he's actually drifting infield a metre or two as he's run forward! Jonny May, on the other hand, proves that ignorance is bliss and he is the happiest man on the planet by staying resolutely on his wing, covering the expected Biggar kick, and ignoring that Biggar is clearly not kicking and that there is a gaping chasm between him and Barritt. He has improved as a player so much since then. Inside Farrell, Billy Vunipola has awoken himself from an idle daydream about butterflies and is ambling over with half a thought of joining the defensive line. He is also not up with Farrell.
Capture 2.PNG
The defensive alignment somehow manages to get worse. Farrell, in all fairness to him, has realised that a) no-one's going with him on the blitz and that b) he's not getting to Biggar before he gets the ball away. He then makes the decision to drift. However, Burgess hasn't got the message and does not drift with him, resulting in Farrell actually crossing over in front of Burgess and following the ball like an under 8s game. Big Sam has his eyes on Jamie Roberts's crash ball line, despite Roberts blatantly not being the one to receive the ball. Also note that BillyV is attempting to join the drift, but with such low energy that he's basically useless. Barritt, meanwhile has finally stopped drifting inwards, and appears startled that Wales might have an overlap - he's come to a screeching halt and is back on his heels trying to change direction. Out on the wing, Jonny B Vacant has realised that there might be a problem and is starting to sprint. Unfortunately, he's sprinting forwards, rather than coming inside to at least attempt to connect with Barritt.
Worth noting as well that this is a terrible Welsh attacking move. Roberts's dummy run is so telegraphed that San Francisco heard about it 2 days before the match and he is clearly never getting the ball, Biggar's pull-back is a good 7-8m behind the gain line and sent to someone who is another 7-8m further back from that. This is not All Blacks bamboozling with perfect rugby stuff - this is a very boring, very deep move, averagely done.
Capture 3.PNG
Burgess has blatantly realised that Roberts is not getting the ball and is scrambling wide. This creates the hilarious sight of our 10 and our 12 running in parallel, like brothers racing after a school bus. Barritt has made the executive decision that one of them is likely to get to the ball carrier (Williams?) and so he is free to utterly ignore the inside from here on out and instead push out onto the wide man to try and connect up with May and prevent the 2-on-1.
Capture 4.PNG
This is the moment at which Barritt realises he was wrong. I would also like to note the effort that Farrell has put in vs the effort that Burgess has put in. So much for the sparkly-eyed man of steel with a heart like a lion. Say what you will about Fazlet (and we do), but at least he *tries*.
Wales break down the middle and earn the penalty that sees them go in at halftime 7 points adrift, rather than 10. Admittedly, the penalty that's given by Garces is a complete nonsense, but it still kept them in the hunt. That was like a textbook example of how a backline should not defend. So glad that we reacted to Joseph's injury by ripping up the backline that we'd practised and prepared for the tournament with and deciding to select an entirely new 10, 12, and 13 for that game, rather than just slotting in the replacement 13 that we had in the squad.
Puja
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Thanks for the Leeds info, lads. I'd gladly join you at the club bar. I'm missing talking bollocks down the rugby club before staggering home something rotten. It just ain't the same out here.
RE: 2015, I'm now getting PTSD flashbacks to watching the game in Leeds. What a crappy evening that was. Even my Irish ex sent commiserations after the Aussie game
Burgess doesn't cover himself in glory, few did on that trip. What I want to know is which fuckwit, after 20 years of experience since the game went pro, thought that a League player who has never tried union can to convert to international level rugby union in just 18 months?
Robinson did it, and Gary Connolly looked weirdly organised for Quins for someone without (so far as I know) any background in union. But they both had skills that were more easily transferable to their roles, Burgess didn't given he wasn't launching into people at pace on attack with no requirement to recycle and he wasn't allowed to maim people on defence
Tbf, Robinson played his first game for Sale in November 2000 and was in the Lions squad in June 2001. Mind, he was a freak and a phenomenon (and a winger, which is always easier).
And I guess technically he had 14 games as a guest star at Bath back in 1996, but he was basically just a league player who happened to be playing for a union side then.
Didn't Robinson only get into the England post Lions tour really anyway? Maybe my memory is a bit all over the place. Perhaps my point should be regarding forwards (which is what Burgess was becoming before the last minute switch back?). Burgess at 12 looks like that time in the 3rd XV when the captain/coach (who is nearly always a forward) thinks it's a good idea to put a forward at 10 or 12 and they spend the game flailing aimlessly.
I thought AFarrell did actually give himself enough time, but for his ridiculous injury that made him lose a year. Burgess was always looking like someone coming over just for the world cup and never had enough time.
Mr Mwenda wrote:I thought AFarrell did actually give himself enough time, but for his ridiculous injury that made him lose a year. Burgess was always looking like someone coming over just for the world cup and never had enough time.
I do have information (which I cannot share as it's private) that suggests that Burgess did intend originally to stay in Bath for 3 years when he signed the contract. Can't be certain of course, but I believe he did arrive with the intention of staying, only to run off back to where he was safe when things got a little bit tough for him.
Seem to recall Eng conceding a score soon after the subs. with the midfield all at sea.
They didn't put enough points up when bossing early on - Fazlet missed touch before HT that led to a score and kept Wal in the match.Once their tails were up, Eng's uncompetitive pack were done for.
There was a freaky shoulder injury to Hallam Amos, that blighted his career - again Faz was involved but not sure what exactly happened.
Remember thinking 12T couldn't have gone worse than what was on show - never read any whinges from him about losing out to the parachute kid.
Mr Mwenda wrote:
Burgess doesn't cover himself in glory, few did on that trip. What I want to know is which fuckwit, after 20 years of experience since the game went pro, thought that a League player who has never tried union can to convert to international level rugby union in just 18 months?
18? Where did the second 9 months come from?
Puja wrote:
I do have information (which I cannot share as it's private) that suggests that Burgess did intend originally to stay in Bath for 3 years when he signed the contract. Can't be certain of course, but I believe he did arrive with the intention of staying, only to run off back to where he was safe when things got a little bit tough for him.
Everything at the time pointed to that intention. And I feelmits perfectly reasonable for any player to fallout with MFord.
He still f***ed us over though
Mr Mwenda wrote:I thought AFarrell did actually give himself enough time, but for his ridiculous injury that made him lose a year. Burgess was always looking like someone coming over just for the world cup and never had enough time.
I do have information (which I cannot share as it's private) that suggests that Burgess did intend originally to stay in Bath for 3 years when he signed the contract. Can't be certain of course, but I believe he did arrive with the intention of staying, only to run off back to where he was safe when things got a little bit tough for him.
Puja
Looking at it from afar, it did feel like Burgess was set up to fail, and he was absolutely scapegoated for England's early exit. While there's no shame in being the one who comes up short in a pool of death, I did feel like Burgess was made to bear the burden for it.
And yeah, Ford and Lancaster never agreeing on where he was meant to play always felt like at least one of them was trying to be the big boy in his big boy pants. Like, pick a spot for the guy, and let him develop there, instead of alternating between 6 and 12, and then see how he's going in the build up to 2019.
I'm a god
How can you kill a god?
Shame on you, sweet Nerevar
Scrumhead wrote:I disagree. Lancaster copped loads of flak for picking him but I don’t think Burgess actually got that much individual criticism.
He took it very personally but I genuinely don’t think he was the scapegoat he likes to portray himself as.
The whole situation and his attitude since pretty much underlines the fact that he’s a painfully arrogant character.
It feels to me like he strolled into rugby union thinking he’d waltz in to the Bath and England sides. The minute it got tough, he quit.
Exactly- Lancaster got hammered for picking him and for pverall selection and performances, and jumped before he was pushed. He just wasn't a very good head coach at that point, despite being a decent enough guy.
Galfon wrote:
Remember thinking 12T couldn't have gone worse than what was on show - never read any whinges from him about losing out to the parachute kid.
Absolutely bizarre to me watching so many performances we've had at 12 in the last 5 years that haven't featured Billy wondering just why they haven't featured more Billy. Yes Twelvetrees makes mistakes, but they've tended to be a mix of his air headed moments and pushing too hard when we're late on and chasing a points deficit and they seem to get summed into some notion he's more error prone than he is. I'd understand if when not picking Billy we were getting competency and error free performances but we're simply not so why he's judged so much more harshly is hard to say.
He's certainly got his complaints about England, like say Cipriani, but like Cips I suspect is concluding he'd rather support the team and not be seen as criticising those who are involved, it's not like he doesn't know it's hard enough without extra criticism, and it's astoundingly unlikey I'm sure he's concluded bellyaching would impress Eddie anyway.
Mr Mwenda wrote:I thought AFarrell did actually give himself enough time, but for his ridiculous injury that made him lose a year. Burgess was always looking like someone coming over just for the world cup and never had enough time.
I do have information (which I cannot share as it's private) that suggests that Burgess did intend originally to stay in Bath for 3 years when he signed the contract. Can't be certain of course, but I believe he did arrive with the intention of staying, only to run off back to where he was safe when things got a little bit tough for him.
Puja
Looking at it from afar, it did feel like Burgess was set up to fail, and he was absolutely scapegoated for England's early exit. While there's no shame in being the one who comes up short in a pool of death, I did feel like Burgess was made to bear the burden for it.
And yeah, Ford and Lancaster never agreeing on where he was meant to play always felt like at least one of them was trying to be the big boy in his big boy pants. Like, pick a spot for the guy, and let him develop there, instead of alternating between 6 and 12, and then see how he's going in the build up to 2019.
And that's one of the reasons that Burgess is so annoying - he used his pet journalists and profile to get the narrative out there that "it was so unfair that the media and the fans scapegoated me for losing the RWC - no-one seems to realise that we were winning before I was taken off!" and has basically astroturfed a problem to complain about. If you look back in the day, you'll struggle to find an article blaming Burgess for the exit, but you'll find plenty of Burgess complaining about being blamed and thus that's the story that's stuck.
Digby wrote:
Galfon wrote:
Remember thinking 12T couldn't have gone worse than what was on show - never read any whinges from him about losing out to the parachute kid.
Absolutely bizarre to me watching so many performances we've had at 12 in the last 5 years that haven't featured Billy wondering just why they haven't featured more Billy. Yes Twelvetrees makes mistakes, but they've tended to be a mix of his air headed moments and pushing too hard when we're late on and chasing a points deficit and they seem to get summed into some notion he's more error prone than he is. I'd understand if when not picking Billy we were getting competency and error free performances but we're simply not so why he's judged so much more harshly is hard to say.
He's certainly got his complaints about England, like say Cipriani, but like Cips I suspect is concluding he'd rather support the team and not be seen as criticising those who are involved, it's not like he doesn't know it's hard enough without extra criticism, and it's astoundingly unlikey I'm sure he's concluded bellyaching would impress Eddie anyway.
There were several occasions where I'd be watching 12T for Glaws and thinking, "You know, we should really have another look at 12T. I think he's been a bit hard done by." And literally within 5 minutes of the thought, he'd make about 3 howling mistakes in quick succession and I remembered why he'd got dropped.
