RugbyRebels

Raggs wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:That's what I'm saying, it would be a very good thing to have. It's what Eddie was talking about I reckon.

Bit puzzling then- Why wouldn't you just ask an actual back row to do it, allowing Nowell to do his basics in defence (and not needing someone else to do his man marking or whatever the pattern is), without removing himself from the game when he'd likely get smashed back more often than not. He doesn't seem especially suited to the roving Hooper style role tbh, and certainly hasn't the experience/reading the game or even physical ability/robustness.

I think its a handy ability to have in his 'standard role' in defence, where as you say, you may get more isolated players. Where I do like him 'following the ball' is in attack, where he is pretty good at turning iffy ball into decent ball, with a little step, half break, or even effective little pick and go's where its a bit wider.

What? I'm saying he stays on the wing, but because of his strengths already, you give him more training in poaching, so that when there's an isolated winger on a break, or only with backs support, Nowell is in the best position to get a turnover. I'm not suggesting that you put him on guard and expect him to compete with the forwards, but rather take advantage of his strengths to compete against backs on the edges.

Digby wrote:Given how England defend if the ball is that wide we're probably scrambling, which isn't a great position to try to get over the ball from. If we wanted to vary the blitz more and drift a little then we might create better chances to involve someone ore adapt at the breakdown wider out. Although tbh we'd need a few injuries before I'd be picking Nowell so hopefully it's not an issue

Puja wrote:Surely this thread is a bit behind the times? Brian O'Driscoll was specialising in jackalling unsuspecting backs in the wide channels back 20 years ago and players like Manu have kept that style of play going.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:

jngf wrote:

Raggs wrote:
He'd never be a Pocock over the ball, but give him semi regular sessions on poaching, and it'd not be bad. Always felt there's a good reason why outside backs tend to get a few turnovers, they're often targeting isolated players.

It will be on the heretical side to some but to unearth a player with the the skillset and athleticism to cover openside and outside centre would really add an X factor to this England side. This was the sort of role I think players like Simmonds and Nowell (and possibly Earl?) could pull off - though I think Burt and then Eddie have prioritised defence as the key thing the flankers bring to the party with attack a very optional extra

Is there any current player in World Rugby who is equally adept in the forwards and backs? Sure there’s some that could probably make a go of it, but at the top level, a good specialist will always beat a non-specialist.

I find it weird that you’re knocking Lancaster and Eddie for prioritising defence, yet less than a week ago you were extolling the virtues of Underhill over Curry purely based upon his defence?

Cameo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

jngf wrote:
It will be on the heretical side to some but to unearth a player with the the skillset and athleticism to cover openside and outside centre would really add an X factor to this England side. This was the sort of role I think players like Simmonds and Nowell (and possibly Earl?) could pull off - though I think Burt and then Eddie have prioritised defence as the key thing the flankers bring to the party with attack a very optional extra

Is there any current player in World Rugby who is equally adept in the forwards and backs? Sure there’s some that could probably make a go of it, but at the top level, a good specialist will always beat a non-specialist.

I find it weird that you’re knocking Lancaster and Eddie for prioritising defence, yet less than a week ago you were extolling the virtues of Underhill over Curry purely based upon his defence?

Levani Boris at La Rochelle/Fiji is the only one I can think of. I don't think it gives them any real tactical advantage as he can only play in one position at a time but he's awesome.

It might make a bench player slightly more attractive. I.e. if you are wavering between a 6/2 and a 5/3 split it would be nice to have one of those three who can cover.

This conversation all seems a bit bizarre to me re Nowell. It all seems to be based on him being quite good at pick and go's and being slower than your other wings. Personally, I wouldn't have him near a wing position for England unless there were quite a few injuries.

Mikey Brown wrote:Who else is 4th man in a squad to cover the back three though? Unless they continue looking at Slade being the emergency option there.

Scrumhead wrote:I have no desire to see Nowell at 7, but I do think he’s underrated. I wouldn’t pick him ahead of May or Watson, but I prefer him to Daly on the wing and while I think Cokanasiga has amazing potential, I can’t help but think he’s slightly overrated.

Stom wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:I have no desire to see Nowell at 7, but I do think he’s underrated. I wouldn’t pick him ahead of May or Watson, but I prefer him to Daly on the wing and while I think Cokanasiga has amazing potential, I can’t help but think he’s slightly overrated.

Daly is a superb wing and Coka has stuck line breaking ability it’s hard to ignore him.

Nowell makes some very good hard yards and created breaks from nothing, but his line defense is poor compared to other options and he’s probably our slowest option available.

I would have him behind Watson, May, Daly and Coka.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:I have no desire to see Nowell at 7, but I do think he’s underrated. I wouldn’t pick him ahead of May or Watson, but I prefer him to Daly on the wing and while I think Cokanasiga has amazing potential, I can’t help but think he’s slightly overrated.

Daly is a superb wing and Coka has stuck line breaking ability it’s hard to ignore him.

Nowell makes some very good hard yards and created breaks from nothing, but his line defense is poor compared to other options and he’s probably our slowest option available.

I would have him behind Watson, May, Daly and Coka.

This.

Which Tyler wrote:
He's great at the stuff you want from an OC or FB.

Which Tyler wrote:I love Nowell as a player, but he'd way down my list of picks on the wing.

He's great at the stuff you want from an OC or FB. But a wing's raison d'etre is to run fast, no amount of other skills can make up for that lack when I'm the judge - just like a SH with a dodgy pass, a FH who lacks vision / game reading, or a hooker with dodgy darts.

And just like all those examples, I'm sure there's a reason I'm not a professional coach.

Scrumhead wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:I love Nowell as a player, but he'd way down my list of picks on the wing.

He's great at the stuff you want from an OC or FB. But a wing's raison d'etre is to run fast, no amount of other skills can make up for that lack when I'm the judge - just like a SH with a dodgy pass, a FH who lacks vision / game reading, or a hooker with dodgy darts.

And just like all those examples, I'm sure there's a reason I'm not a professional coach.

I’m not sure I agree. Pace is without doubt one of the chief weapons in a winger’s arsenal, but it’s not the only thing I look at. The reason Jonny May is so good now is that he’s massively developed the rest of his game to match his pace.

Nowell is useful because he doesn’t require an overlap to make yards. His footwork, strength and the fact that he’s just damn difficult to put down make him a really good asset in tighter games with less space.

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:I love Nowell as a player, but he'd way down my list of picks on the wing.

He's great at the stuff you want from an OC or FB. But a wing's raison d'etre is to run fast, no amount of other skills can make up for that lack when I'm the judge - just like a SH with a dodgy pass, a FH who lacks vision / game reading, or a hooker with dodgy darts.

And just like all those examples, I'm sure there's a reason I'm not a professional coach.

I’m not sure I agree. Pace is without doubt one of the chief weapons in a winger’s arsenal, but it’s not the only thing I look at. The reason Jonny May is so good now is that he’s massively developed the rest of his game to match his pace.

Nowell is useful because he doesn’t require an overlap to make yards. His footwork, strength and the fact that he’s just damn difficult to put down make him a really good asset in tighter games with less space.

Useful yes. What you look for primarily in an international, winger no. His first up defence is poor, and he's also fit only marginally more often than JSD.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
I’m not sure I agree. Pace is without doubt one of the chief weapons in a winger’s arsenal, but it’s not the only thing I look at. The reason Jonny May is so good now is that he’s massively developed the rest of his game to match his pace.

Nowell is useful because he doesn’t require an overlap to make yards. His footwork, strength and the fact that he’s just damn difficult to put down make him a really good asset in tighter games with less space.

Useful yes. What you look for primarily in an international, winger no. His first up defence is poor, and he's also fit only marginally more often than JSD.

But damn, JSD was insanely good.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote: Useful yes. What you look for primarily in an international, winger no. His first up defence is poor, and he's also fit only marginally more often than JSD.

But damn, JSD was insanely good.

this is true. One of the best English backs I've seen.

Digby wrote:Almost certainly England missed out there, looked a test player in every way bar actually getting a real chance to show what he could do. Which for a while wasn't his fault, nor England's with all those injuries, but then he was just overlooked for a weirdly long period of time

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:Almost certainly England missed out there, looked a test player in every way bar actually getting a real chance to show what he could do. Which for a while wasn't his fault, nor England's with all those injuries, but then he was just overlooked for a weirdly long period of time

Yep, people trot out that he was always crocked, but there was a long period where he wasn't and was overlooked. I do remember he was brought into the squad a few times prior to that, and inevitably dropped out. But plenty of other players were given almost infinite injury tolerance.
He was brilliant in the 2002 AI's and would have made the RWC squad, imo, but got glandular fever