West Country Derby - Bath vs. Gloucester - Tuesday 22nd, 5.30

[fivepointer]

Singleton has been pretty anonymous for Glos so far. His set piece work is fine but he doesnt exactly sparkle in the loose.
Dunn is a seriously good grafting hooker. His work rate is always high, his error count low.
There are few good young hookers around. I like Capon at Bristol, Cutting at Worcester and Langdon at Sale. All very similar in the way they play, mobile, good hands and capable of linking play.

[Peej]

I don't disagree (and there are good young hookers coming through too like Oghre at Wasps for the next cycle). But are any of those first choice though? Is Capon behind Thacker? Langdon behind the Angry Warthog?

[Scrumhead]

I like Capon, Cutting, Langdon and Oghre as future possibilities, but right now, Dunn absolutely deserves to be our third hooker. Singleton will be very lucky to make the squad.

Langdon could be quietly overtaking Akker IMO. He’s played consistently well and, importantly, his darts seem to be considerably better. For all Akker offers in the loose, Langdon’s better set piece game could end up seeing him elevated to first choice. Akker also seems a bit injury prone.

[Raggs]

Oghre's not first choice at Wasps yet, but I can't imagine he's far off. I think Cruse/Taylor may often be preferred for their leadership and vocals, rather than straight up ability.

[Mikey Brown]

Has Taylor’s time passed completely? Still injury probe or just not the same player anymore?

[Scrumhead]

Realistically, yes. Taylor is still a very good player but not obviously better than the player’s he is competing with and unfortunately his prospects are almost always hampered by his injury proneness.

At this point, I’d take George, LCD and Dunn with Barbeary as an apprentice. Singleton needs to do a lot more to show he deserves a spot IMO.

[Raggs]

Not sure I'd bother with Dunn, he's 28, and unlikely to do much as 3rd choice, I'd rather aim for someone younger to be 3rd choice.

[Scrumhead]

Well that may be why Singleton is there, but it’s not on merit.

28 is far from over the hill for a hooker and at this stage, I just don’t see enough from the other names mentioned to warrant picking them ahead of Dunn.

If Barbeary fuflfils his potential, Dunn will just be keeping the seat warm for a couple of years anyway.

[fivepointer]

Singleton is 24. Is he ever going to be our first choice hooker? I doubt it.
Dunn is 4 years older and it seems unlikely he's going to be first choice but right now is streets ahead of Singleton as a player. Now it may be that some of the names mentioned above will come through over the next season or two, but for now Dunn's case for squad selection seems pretty hard to resist.

[padprop]

Id say theres even a case for Dunn to be second choice at the moment. I know LCD is mustard around the park but there is still question marks about his throwing at the highest level.

[Which Tyler]

28 is way too early be passing over any front-rower. Hell, 28 is too young to be passing over a winger with 3 years left to the World Cup.

The other question is - and this goes for all the loyal Saracens contingent - is George good enough to keep his place internationally whilst playing in the Championship? Is he that far ahead of the competition?
IF not - wouldn't it be a good idea to get some game-time into the next cab off the rank in the next couple of months, rather than waiting until the 6N?


Itoje definitely is, yes.
Farrell really is that important to England, much as I wish he wasn't.

Mako - with Marler, Genge, and probably Obano... I'm not so sure
George - with LCD and Dunn... I'm not so sure
Billy - given that there are also question marks around his form, and his ability to self-motivate; and then given the strength of competition... I'm not so sure

Daly - given the competition, and quite honestly, his form since trying to be a full back - I don't think so

I'm not saying that I'd definitely drop any of them - but there's a case to be made, and an interesting discussion for Eddie to have with his assistants (who are they at the moment?).

[Raggs]

28 is way too early be passing over any front-rower. Hell, 28 is too young to be passing over a winger with 3 years left to the World Cup.

The other question is - and this goes for all the loyal Saracens contingent - is George good enough to keep his place internationally whilst playing in the Championship? Is he that far ahead of the competition?
IF not - wouldn't it be a good idea to get some game-time into the next cab off the rank in the next couple of months, rather than waiting until the 6N?

Passed over, I agree, but put in 3rd place? 3 years left to a world cup? Surely we look to take a younger player and develop them for 3 years, from the 3rd place spot.

[Which Tyler]

Passed over, I agree, but put in 3rd place? 3 years left to a world cup? Surely we look to take a younger player and develop them for 3 years, from the 3rd place spot.

Why not? it's not like 31 is horrendously past it.
IMO there's a case to be made for a winger in that situation; but not really at hooker.
Now if you (or, more to the point, Eddie) thinks that someone like Barbeary will be ready in time, then that's a different matter; but "28 is too old in the front row" is just silly.
For a front row, 28 is just the start of his physical peak.

[Mikey Brown]

It kind of ties in to the second point though, no?

I'm really not sure how we approach our use of the key Saracens guys over the next year. If they're playing in the Championship will they actually need to prove their form, or do they simply have to show they are fit enough to retain their spot?

How much are we actually expecting Mako, George, Itoje, Billy, Faz, Daly to play week after week? It doesn't quite seem fair either to discard them for a year or to say to their competition that no amount of good Premiership/European form can put you ahead of the incumbent.

If they don't play for England much they're only going to fall further behind, and it feels like you could end up in a situation where they might as well take a year off, but they're presumably all pushing for Lions places.

[Which Tyler]

Exactly - and there's no easy answer.
ETA: Unless the "no overseas players" rule is actually worded "play in the Premiership to play for England" rather than "play in England to play for England". That would be a nice, easy get out of jail free card for Eddie to play, if available.

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t think he’d be looking for a reason not to select them, but I think it’s a valid concern the quality and quantity they will play next season.

Faz/Itoje could probably move to Japan and still get selected though.

[Mellsblue]

Supposedly, they’ve all had assurances from Jones and Gatland that playing in the champ won’t affect their selection chances. As has been pointed out on here before, they have another two (hopefully) Euro matches with Sarries and are then pretty much straight in to the 8N, they’ll then have a nice couple of months off over Xmas and NY before the 6N. Sarries are also trying to organise an exhibition match against the Stormers (?) and I’d assume there might be some more but I guess those will be dependent on crowds being allowed. They will also be in Lions camp on time and fresh whilst Prem players will be at the end of 10 month season/slog, at best, or be late in to camp if they play for Exeter or A N Other, at worst.

[Oakboy]

I agree with all the above but I would not select a single Saracens player for England while they are not in the Premiership. Basically, particularly in the 'no-crowds' era, a season in the Championship is a nice little holiday for all concerned. Punishment? What punishment? How can it not be the players fault? They are the ones on the receiving end of the financial abuse. I'd rather we lost international matches, not that I think their absence would matter much.

[switchskier]

Exactly - and there's no easy answer.
ETA: Unless the "no overseas players" rule is actually worded "play in the Premiership to play for England" rather than "play in England to play for England". That would be a nice, easy get out of jail free card for Eddie to play, if available.

Isn't the bigger issue if the "no overseas players rule" is worded around playing in the premiership and every players currently overseas then has a grievance for not being picked if championship players are included? How do you go about checked my that?

[Timbo]

Supposedly, they’ve all had assurances from Jones and Gatland that playing in the champ won’t affect their selection chances. As has been pointed out on here before, they have another two (hopefully) Euro matches with Sarries and are then pretty much straight in to the 8N, they’ll then have a nice couple of months off over Xmas and NY before the 6N. Sarries are also trying to organise an exhibition match against the Stormers (?) and I’d assume there might be some more but I guess those will be dependent on crowds being allowed. They will also be in Lions camp on time and fresh whilst Prem players will be at the end of 10 month season/slog, at best, or be late in to camp if they play for Exeter or A N Other, at worst.

Assuming the Lions tour isn’t rescheduled I can see why Gatland might have something to ponder. Between the 6Nations finishing and the start of the Lions there must be a good 9-10 week gap. That’s probably a bit too long to be totally comfortable with the Sarries players lack of top class game time.

For Eddie I don’t see an issue. Autumn schedule follows on straight after the finish of this season, then 6 week break for the Sarries boys before they go back into England camp. They should be in fantastic condition.

[Mikey Brown]

Fair enough. I’ll admit I actually had no idea what the proposed schedule for internationals was. I assumed they were a way away.

It still seems a ridiculous prospect to me that any of it’s actually going ahead. I barely believed the premiership was starting up again until the weekend it kicked off.

[Mellsblue]

Pro sport has functioned pretty well since it’s resumption in both Europe and the US.
If the teams/franchises/unions/associations have enough money to throw at testing and covid secure logistics and take covid secure protocols seriously, and the players maintain bubbles then it is proven that it can be done.
Obviously a second wave that sees similar to the spring and/or money running out might put an end to that for all/some pro sport.

[FKAS]

Passed over, I agree, but put in 3rd place? 3 years left to a world cup? Surely we look to take a younger player and develop them for 3 years, from the 3rd place spot.

Why not? it's not like 31 is horrendously past it.
IMO there's a case to be made for a winger in that situation; but not really at hooker.
Now if you (or, more to the point, Eddie) thinks that someone like Barbeary will be ready in time, then that's a different matter; but "28 is too old in the front row" is just silly.
For a front row, 28 is just the start of his physical peak.

Dunn is in great form and 28 is no age for a front row forward. In his current form he's at least the third best option. However, if you look at the bigger picture in three years time after the RWC George will be 32, Dunn will be 31 and LCD 30. It means you are really looking for three new hookers in the next RWC cycle. Succession planning needs to be a bit more organised than that. Certainly for the next 12 months we can utilise those three whilst the next one off the production line steps forward but we've got to be looking for Singleton and other hookers under 25 and starting to get them involved in squads.

[Raggs]

I just don't see the point in having such an old 3rd choice. Whoever it is that's third choice . Unless of course, one of the other two is much younger.

[Scrumhead]

Passed over, I agree, but put in 3rd place? 3 years left to a world cup? Surely we look to take a younger player and develop them for 3 years, from the 3rd place spot.

Why not? it's not like 31 is horrendously past it.
IMO there's a case to be made for a winger in that situation; but not really at hooker.
Now if you (or, more to the point, Eddie) thinks that someone like Barbeary will be ready in time, then that's a different matter; but "28 is too old in the front row" is just silly.
For a front row, 28 is just the start of his physical peak.

Dunn is in great form and 28 is no age for a front row forward. In his current form he's at least the third best option. However, if you look at the bigger picture in three years time after the RWC George will be 32, Dunn will be 31 and LCD 30. It means you are really looking for three new hookers in the next RWC cycle. Succession planning needs to be a bit more organised than that. Certainly for the next 12 months we can utilise those three whilst the next one off the production line steps forward but we've got to be looking for Singleton and other hookers under 25 and starting to get them involved in squads.

I agree. When I first made the case for Dunn as 3rd choice hooker, I thought I was quite clearly talking about now. He is more than good enough to be there until younger options are actually worthy of succeeding him.

The trouble is, the only English hooker under 25 who is regularly starting is Singleton and he isn’t in the kind of form to be selected (and TBH hasn’t been in about a year).

As I posted before, I think Langdon may be making a case to leapfrog Akker, but Capon and Cutting are third choices for their clubs (don’t forget Moulds is injured ATM) and won’t be viable options for a while. Barbeary looks like a different case. As soon as his set piece game is up to speed, I think he’ll be fighting for a first team place at Wasps.