England Training Squad

[Which Tyler]

Sinckler and Stuart aren't the problem - the problem is that the cupboard is bare behind them.
Surely we can find someone better than Williams to be 3rd choice

[Timbo]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

If he had an opportunity to play in a first choice England tight 5 for say, a full 6 Nations I think he’d be very adequate.

[Mellsblue]

No Ludlam is odd, although he was severely limping at the end of Saints’ last game so it could definitely be an injury-enforced absence.

.

Assume he's either symptomatic or tested positive then?

Must have. Dingwall etc played in the Sale match, too.

[fivepointer]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

If he had an opportunity to play in a first choice England tight 5 for say, a full 6 Nations I think he’d be very adequate.

100% bang on.
I'd also add this his form since restart has been highly impressive.
There is a long gap between our top 3 TH's and anyone else. And Williams is very definitely in our top 3.

[Puja]

Incidentally Marler's had a minor operation on his knee to clear out some fluid, hence why he's not involved. Should be back in 5 weeks, apparently.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

If he had an opportunity to play in a first choice England tight 5 for say, a full 6 Nations I think he’d be very adequate.

I do find with front rows probably more than any other position I allow my opinion to be formed by what people think on here, because I just cannot bring myself to pay attention to scrums anymore. I'd be amazed if I got the call right even 50% of the time if I was a ref. It seems like there's three different infringements going on at any one moment in most scrums.

Unless it's an intense test match I can hardly ever recall occasions players are particularly good in scrums. Marler frequently is, Mako as frequently seems to get on top as he does get defeated. I never know what to expect from Sinkler or Genge really, but both seem to have improved quite a bit over the last couple of seasons.

...Anyway. I've just sort of accepted Williams isn't up to it based on little more than the criticism on here and the vague recollection of some dumb penalties he's given away for England. In theory he does seem like he should be a very solid pick as the cornerstone of the Exeter pack, not in the way he plays particularly, but as tight-head in such an impressive forward unit he must be doing a lot of things right.

[FKAS]

Who else is there as a young 9 who isn't involved in the play-offs though? Robson, Spencer, Maunder, Maunder, Randall, Uren, Vellacott - all of the names generally bandied about are all busy for this training camp. And while I don't particularly want Heinz back playing for England, there's far worse players for Mitchell to be training with and learning from.

The only available young 9 is Ben White and I'm not a fan of his anyway - very glad that he's not been picked ahead of Mitchell.

Puja

White at Tigers, Taylor at Saints, Whitely from Sarries take the time to get some development opportunities with them. This squad will change before we actually play games I don't see the point in naming two 30 something scrum halfs. We could ditch Heinz for the short term and still have a 99 cap (plus Lions caps) scrum half in the squad for experience. Heinz isn't an integral part of the squad like say Ford and Farrell.

Youngs has been having an influence on White already and that's mostly what I don't like about him!

Taylor and Whitely will never play for England, unless we somehow have a national scrum-half shortage and are down to our 9th choice. They're not worth putting development into. I would generally add White to that category except that he is still very young, has time to develop, and there must be *something* about him that coaches are seeing and I'm missing.

Frankly, I'd rather development attention was focussed on Mitchell than split the attention to some never weres and a probably never will be.

Puja

I wouldn't be surprised if Whitely ended up Sarries first choice by the time they get promoted back to the Prem. Taylor yes you're probably right. I just don't see the point in selecting a mid thirties second choice 9 when you've got your eyes on the next RWC cycle.

Sinckler and Stuart aren't the problem - the problem is that the cupboard is bare behind them.
Surely we can find someone better than Williams to be 3rd choice

We've got a much better position than we had 10 years ago when the options were Cole, Thomas and ....

I suppose the current issue that a few of players come in after those three are younger guys who are developing like Painter, Heyes and Street. Might be why Kerrod has been brought in for a bit of an interview type call up. See if he's someone we could use in an injury crisis.

[padprop]

I imagine alot of tightheads in the prem would do alot better at international than some people think. A bit more luck with injury and Brookes would have alot more caps and I always thought Cooper-Wolley was criminally underrated. Although he does seem to be playing second fiddle at Sale atm. Malherbe and Francis have shown theres still a market out there for tightheads that are solid in the scrum and hit rucks, and we’ve got quite a few.

[FKAS]

I imagine alot of tightheads in the prem would do alot better at international than some people think. A bit more luck with injury and Brookes would have alot more caps and I always thought Cooper-Wolley was criminally underrated. Although he does seem to be playing second fiddle at Sale atm. Malherbe and Francis have shown theres still a market out there for tightheads that are solid in the scrum and hit rucks, and we’ve got quite a few.

Brookes is the most overrated work shy prop in the league. For every one half decent carry he spends four phases leaning on rucks or lying on the floor. He'd have to drop a stone and radically change his cardiovascular fitness to get back within a mile or being selected again. Whilst he was unlucky with injury his recovery times from those injuries were longer than they needed to be because he's lazy, that's we Tigers cut him loose they were sick of his attitude.

Cooper-Wooley I always thought was the type of dependable tighthead any club would value. Bit unfortunate for him international rugby requires more in the loose from props to the point where someone like Dan Cole who was at one time heralded for his openside style abilities is considered a dinosaur. Eddie increasingly likes his big ball carriers in the front row Vunipola, Genge, George, LCD, Sinckler, Stuart. Currently Marler is the only odd one out.

[Beasties]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

If he had an opportunity to play in a first choice England tight 5 for say, a full 6 Nations I think he’d be very adequate.

100% bang on.
I'd also add this his form since restart has been highly impressive.
There is a long gap between our top 3 TH's and anyone else. And Williams is very definitely in our top 3.

Glad someone else has noticed he's not too shabby. Stuart is genuinely exciting as an option though. Could see him and Sinck being used in a similar fashion to Marler and Mako.

[Puja]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

I have to say, I don't recall these impacts myself (not necessarily a guarantee you're wrong, with my memory). I always saw him as strikingly ineffective when he came on - solid enough in the scrum, but bugger all else.

Puja

[FKAS]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

If he had an opportunity to play in a first choice England tight 5 for say, a full 6 Nations I think he’d be very adequate.

100% bang on.
I'd also add this his form since restart has been highly impressive.
There is a long gap between our top 3 TH's and anyone else. And Williams is very definitely in our top 3.

Glad someone else has noticed he's not too shabby. Stuart is genuinely exciting as an option though. Could see him and Sinck being used in a similar fashion to Marler and Mako.

I thought Stuart was pretty meh pre lockdown. Solid but not anything to shout about. Post lockdown though he's been outstanding each time I've seen him play (admittedly I've not seen every game). That front row for Bath is really all action and they seem to be pushing each other on. Maybe Eddie will give Stuart more game time than he got in the original 6N games.

[Scrumhead]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

I have to say, I don't recall these impacts myself (not necessarily a guarantee you're wrong, with my memory). I always saw him as strikingly ineffective when he came on - solid enough in the scrum, but bugger all else.

Puja

I’m more inclined to think that you don’t recall the ‘impacts’ because they didn’t happen ...

My assessment is the same as yours - he was conspicuous in his lack of work and hesitancy. I seem to remember we posted an almost identical post at one point saying something along the lines of ‘what is Williams doing just watching a maul’.

I think he has the ability to be a good test tighthead, but to me it felt like he was nervous and out of his depth. That worries me as he wasn’t under a great deal of pressure.

[padprop]

As someone said previously, if our third choice tighthead is better than the welsh first choice, I don’t see it being a huge problem position for at least the next world cup cycle

[Puja]

As someone said previously, if our third choice tighthead is better than the welsh first choice, I don’t see it being a huge problem position for at least the next world cup cycle

Besides quibbling over whether one is first choice or if they rotate, the difference is that the Welsh tighthead has shown an ability to perform at international level, outside of the rigid confines of the Exeter gameplan. Until Williams can turn in an international performance like Francis can, he is the weaker player at international level, regardless of their club performances.

I will concede that he hasn't had a good run in the side and may deserve another crack, if his Exeter form is persuasive, to see if he's improved/shaken off the nerves.

Puja

[fivepointer]

I think Williams gets a bit a bad rap on this board. He regularly keeps Wales’ first choice tighthead out of the Exeter team, and the negative views of him as an international stem mainly from his starts playing with an incohesive second string. Off the bench he’s made an impact a number of times for England.

I have to say, I don't recall these impacts myself (not necessarily a guarantee you're wrong, with my memory). I always saw him as strikingly ineffective when he came on - solid enough in the scrum, but bugger all else.

Puja

I’m more inclined to think that you don’t recall the ‘impacts’ because they didn’t happen ...

My assessment is the same as yours - he was conspicuous in his lack of work and hesitancy. I seem to remember we posted an almost identical post at one point saying something along the lines of ‘what is Williams doing just watching a maul’.

I think he has the ability to be a good test tighthead, but to me it felt like he was nervous and out of his depth. That worries me as he wasn’t under a great deal of pressure.

I recall one game, possibly against Scotland, where Williams came on for the last 10 minutes and made a double digit tackle count. Cole had made about 5 in the preceding 70 minutes.
Watch his ruck clearance work. Its exceptional, far better than any of our other props. He can carry too, though less than he should. And he largely makes his tackles. His scrummaging is on a par with Sinckler and Stuart.
Could he have done a bit more for England with the chances he's been given? I think he probably could have, though his chances have been limited. He's seldom started a game and often only been brought on for the last 10 minutes.

I'm more than happy to have him in the squad. Heck, if this guys our 3rd choice, then we are in a very good position.

But if there is anyone out there currently a better option i've yet to see them named.

[Puja]

I have to say, I don't recall these impacts myself (not necessarily a guarantee you're wrong, with my memory). I always saw him as strikingly ineffective when he came on - solid enough in the scrum, but bugger all else.

Puja

I’m more inclined to think that you don’t recall the ‘impacts’ because they didn’t happen ...

My assessment is the same as yours - he was conspicuous in his lack of work and hesitancy. I seem to remember we posted an almost identical post at one point saying something along the lines of ‘what is Williams doing just watching a maul’.

I think he has the ability to be a good test tighthead, but to me it felt like he was nervous and out of his depth. That worries me as he wasn’t under a great deal of pressure.

I recall one game, possibly against Scotland, where Williams came on for the last 10 minutes and made a double digit tackle count. Cole had made about 5 in the preceding 70 minutes.
Watch his ruck clearance work. Its exceptional, far better than any of our other props. He can carry too, though less than he should. And he largely makes his tackles. His scrummaging is on a par with Sinckler and Stuart.
Could he have done a bit more for England with the chances he's been given? I think he probably could have, though his chances have been limited. He's seldom started a game and often only been brought on for the last 10 minutes.

I'm more than happy to have him in the squad. Heck, if this guys our 3rd choice, then we are in a very good position.

But if there is anyone out there currently a better option i've yet to see them named.

We can certainly agree on the last sentence, but I suspect with radically different moods about it.

Puja

[Beasties]

I have to say, I don't recall these impacts myself (not necessarily a guarantee you're wrong, with my memory). I always saw him as strikingly ineffective when he came on - solid enough in the scrum, but bugger all else.

Puja

I’m more inclined to think that you don’t recall the ‘impacts’ because they didn’t happen ...

My assessment is the same as yours - he was conspicuous in his lack of work and hesitancy. I seem to remember we posted an almost identical post at one point saying something along the lines of ‘what is Williams doing just watching a maul’.

I think he has the ability to be a good test tighthead, but to me it felt like he was nervous and out of his depth. That worries me as he wasn’t under a great deal of pressure.

I recall one game, possibly against Scotland, where Williams came on for the last 10 minutes and made a double digit tackle count. Cole had made about 5 in the preceding 70 minutes.
Watch his ruck clearance work. Its exceptional, far better than any of our other props. He can carry too, though less than he should. And he largely makes his tackles. His scrummaging is on a par with Sinckler and Stuart.
Could he have done a bit more for England with the chances he's been given? I think he probably could have, though his chances have been limited. He's seldom started a game and often only been brought on for the last 10 minutes.

I'm more than happy to have him in the squad. Heck, if this guys our 3rd choice, then we are in a very good position.

But if there is anyone out there currently a better option i've yet to see them named.

It's almost as if we've all forgotten that Paul Doran Jones was a contender a while ago.

[Oakboy]

Surely prop is the one position where club form means a great deal because a prop is in direct set-piece physical confrontation with an opponent. How often has Williams been found wanting? Against whom?

Add on that he consistently forms an integral part of a match-winning unit (front row or whole pack). Then, consider that he is a pretty vital cog in an attack that is rarely stopped from 5 metres out.

Williams is better than solid.

[Mellsblue]

Being a good scrummager doesn’t make you a test prop these days. That’s the bare minimum. Haven’t seen much of England being a pick and go team from 5 yards so Williams’ efficacy are this is pretty moot.
I say this as someone who is happy with the fact that he’s our 3rd choice th.

[Puja]

Surely prop is the one position where club form means a great deal because a prop is in direct set-piece physical confrontation with an opponent. How often has Williams been found wanting? Against whom?

Not really. His position in Exeter's pack means that it's hard to tell how any of his scrummaging form translates to international level, because he's in a superior unit against lesser opposition. Not to mention that props need to do more than scrummage.

Add on that he consistently forms an integral part of a match-winning unit (front row or whole pack). Then, consider that he is a pretty vital cog in an attack that is rarely stopped from 5 metres out.

As he doesn't get to bring Dave Ewers with him,that's less relevant.

Williams is better than solid.

At club level, sure. At international level, he has not shown it. And it's a damning indictment that he played in all 4 2018 AIs (starting 1 and getting >20 minutes in the other three), played 3 6N games (all >20 minutes), went to the pre-RWC camps, played in one of the pre-RWC friendlies, and Eddie decided, after a good long look, that he'd rather have no third tighthead than take him. And while squad size is a thing, consider that Eddie took McConnochie instead, who was largely superfluous.

Puja

[Digby]

Not being able to scrummage can I'm told get you to a WC final

[Epaminondas Pules]

I have to say, I don't recall these impacts myself (not necessarily a guarantee you're wrong, with my memory). I always saw him as strikingly ineffective when he came on - solid enough in the scrum, but bugger all else.

Puja

I’m more inclined to think that you don’t recall the ‘impacts’ because they didn’t happen ...

My assessment is the same as yours - he was conspicuous in his lack of work and hesitancy. I seem to remember we posted an almost identical post at one point saying something along the lines of ‘what is Williams doing just watching a maul’.

I think he has the ability to be a good test tighthead, but to me it felt like he was nervous and out of his depth. That worries me as he wasn’t under a great deal of pressure.

I recall one game, possibly against Scotland, where Williams came on for the last 10 minutes and made a double digit tackle count. Cole had made about 5 in the preceding 70 minutes.
Watch his ruck clearance work. Its exceptional, far better than any of our other props. He can carry too, though less than he should. And he largely makes his tackles. His scrummaging is on a par with Sinckler and Stuart.
Could he have done a bit more for England with the chances he's been given? I think he probably could have, though his chances have been limited. He's seldom started a game and often only been brought on for the last 10 minutes.

I'm more than happy to have him in the squad. Heck, if this guys our 3rd choice, then we are in a very good position.

But if there is anyone out there currently a better option i've yet to see them named.

Against Wales, in Cardiff 2019, he came on after 57 mins and went on to make 15 tackles. He was similarly effective against Ireland in Dublin. He's played 18 games for England, with 15 off the bench and a total of 461 minutes. I'm perfectly happy having Williams as 3rd choice. He averages a tackle every five minutes, which is decent. Carrying wise it is more like one a game.

Stuart has 3 caps, totalling about 30 mins on the pitch, made 1 run for 1 metre and 7 tackles. He looks a very good prospect, though some of the comments are getting nearer to hyperbole as he's yet to really play international rugby, let alone make a mark. He's not looked out of place, but equally hasn't really looked anything of note yet. He shows all the hallmarks of having a game that should bridge into international rugby well, but only time will tell really.

At the end of the day, your third choice front row is someone that will play plenty of international rugby. They are one away from playing some part, most likely off the bench. Williams can do that, though we've yet to see his full Exeter 'form' at international level. That said we should also keep looking for more and more depth, as losing two props in the same position is nothing particularly unusual. Where do we go after Williams? There is a drop off from the 'top three' into the next bunch which is a mix of potential, with obvious flaws and kind of meh stop gaps.

[jngf]

You could easily make the argument. Think you'd have a lot more trouble defending it or proving it.

Time will tell I suppose, could very well to be wrong. Stuart has all the weapons to be a top top international tighthead, he’ll never Sinckler’s passing game or running lines, but his tight carrying is some of the best I’ve seen from an english prop. To be as mobile as he is at his weight is also an anomaly

Stuart is very good.

Sinckler is special.

Having that in your locker at international level is beyond useful.

I'm sure Stuart will become a good international, but he's not close to Sinckler, imo.

At the risk of straying out of my backrow/second row comfort zone should not the primary purpose of THP be out and out scrummaging ability? - I love Sinks loose play - arguably best in the world at what he does in this facet but ultimately who is the better scrummager between him and Stuart? - and I ask this not knowing the answer but simply that I would have thought that this would seem to be the acid test out of which of them should be first choice pick?

[Raggs]

I think Stuart is better in strength, but would back Sinks experience at the moment. I think Cole is probably still one of the best. I do not want Cole in the squad any more. There are not enough scrums in a game to justify picking solely on scrummaging ability. It's important, they have to be able to hold their own, which Sinkler can absolutely do, but they need to be able to do so much more now.