Player ratings

[Banquo]

Genge - 7. Good in the scrums, okay in the loose, still not as good a carrier as he thinks he is and would be better if he was less ambitious
George - 8. Armchair ride. Did what he needed to do well.
Stuart - 8. Excellent scrummaging, good in the loose. Real announcement on the international stage
Ewels/Launchbury - 6. Okay, I guess. Did what was needed.
Itoje - 6. Same as the rest of the locks
Willis - 7. One turnover, one try, generally pretty decent, but didn't get too many chances.
BillyV - 4. What has happened? Looked hesitant and too high in the carry and was often stopped still or driven backward.

Youngs - 5. Occasionally didn't kick the ball.
Farrell - 4. No ability to spark the backline at all.
Slade - 4. Looks out of place at 12 and offered nothing of any great interest.

Any other backs - Good tackling, good kick returning. Not fair to judge them on much else.

Puja

JJ made two cracking breaks, I liked the way he was used. On the other hand, a dry day would have seen the Georgia back line defence shredded imo

[Banquo]

Genge - 7. Good in the scrums, okay in the loose, still not as good a carrier as he thinks he is and would be better if he was less ambitious
George - 8. Armchair ride. Did what he needed to do well.
Stuart - 8. Excellent scrummaging, good in the loose. Real announcement on the international stage
Ewels/Launchbury - 6. Okay, I guess. Did what was needed.
Itoje - 6. Same as the rest of the locks
Willis - 7. One turnover, one try, generally pretty decent, but didn't get too many chances.
BillyV - 4. What has happened? Looked hesitant and too high in the carry and was often stopped still or driven backward.

Youngs - 5. Occasionally didn't kick the ball.
Farrell - 4. No ability to spark the backline at all.
Slade - 4. Looks out of place at 12 and offered nothing of any great interest.

Any other backs - Good tackling, good kick returning. Not fair to judge them on much else.

Puja

Disagree strongly about Slade. How can he be himself with Youngs and Farrell at 9/10? Within those restrictions, he played well, IMO.

One pass aside, Slade was poor and Geech was talking bollocks about this game.

[Banquo]

Youngs and Farrell aren’t the reason for him making more than one forward pass in promising situations. He played a big part in the move that lead to Daly’s try, but on the whole he was pretty inaccurate/poor.

Perhaps you could say he was under pressure, but if you can’t cope with the level of pressure Georgia bring, what happens when you play a better side?

Generally I rate Slade very highly - he’s just very hit and miss for England. I felt like he’d ‘arrived’ as a test player in 2018, but he hasn’t been much good for a while ...

Slade has been excellent at 13 since 2018. Not sure what you are wanting from him, given the way we play. He’s sorted his defence out and is very consistent there- if you are criticising his play at 12, then that’s both fair and unfair at the same time .

[Puja]

Youngs and Farrell aren’t the reason for him making more than one forward pass in promising situations. He played a big part in the move that lead to Daly’s try, but on the whole he was pretty inaccurate/poor.

Perhaps you could say he was under pressure, but if you can’t cope with the level of pressure Georgia bring, what happens when you play a better side?

Generally I rate Slade very highly - he’s just very hit and miss for England. I felt like he’d ‘arrived’ as a test player in 2018, but he hasn’t been much good for a while ...

Slade has been excellent at 13 since 2018. Not sure what you are wanting from him, given the way we play. He’s sorted his defence out and is very consistent there- if you are criticising his play at 12, then that’s both fair and unfair at the same time .

The thing that changed in 2018 was the return of Tuilagi and the use of him as a 12 - he hasn't really shown any England form outside of that partnership. I mean, he *was* set up to fail when we had the FFS midfield of Ford/Faz/Slade with three playmakers and no runners so it's not fair judging on that, but people are talking about "not being able to judge him when playing with Farrell" when he has played very well with Farrell before and the only changes are a shift in position and not playing alongside Manu, someone who will make any centre partner look good by the amount of attention he attracts.

I think he does need a burly 12 taking people's attention from him as he has at Exeter. Whether he can do that for England without Manu? Don't know.

Puja

[Banquo]

Youngs and Farrell aren’t the reason for him making more than one forward pass in promising situations. He played a big part in the move that lead to Daly’s try, but on the whole he was pretty inaccurate/poor.

Perhaps you could say he was under pressure, but if you can’t cope with the level of pressure Georgia bring, what happens when you play a better side?

Generally I rate Slade very highly - he’s just very hit and miss for England. I felt like he’d ‘arrived’ as a test player in 2018, but he hasn’t been much good for a while ...

Slade has been excellent at 13 since 2018. Not sure what you are wanting from him, given the way we play. He’s sorted his defence out and is very consistent there- if you are criticising his play at 12, then that’s both fair and unfair at the same time .

The thing that changed in 2018 was the return of Tuilagi and the use of him as a 12 - he hasn't really shown any England form outside of that partnership. I mean, he *was* set up to fail when we had the FFS midfield of Ford/Faz/Slade with three playmakers and no runners so it's not fair judging on that, but people are talking about "not being able to judge him when playing with Farrell" when he has played very well with Farrell before and the only changes are a shift in position and not playing alongside Manu, someone who will make any centre partner look good by the amount of attention he attracts.

I think he does need a burly 12 taking people's attention from him as he has at Exeter. Whether he can do that for England without Manu? Don't know.

Puja

‘Only a shift in position’....obviously you are winding me up.

I must confess to having been underwhelmed by Slade at 13 internationally until the last two years, but given the way we set up, he’s been pretty effective.

[Scrumhead]

Youngs and Farrell aren’t the reason for him making more than one forward pass in promising situations. He played a big part in the move that lead to Daly’s try, but on the whole he was pretty inaccurate/poor.

Perhaps you could say he was under pressure, but if you can’t cope with the level of pressure Georgia bring, what happens when you play a better side?

Generally I rate Slade very highly - he’s just very hit and miss for England. I felt like he’d ‘arrived’ as a test player in 2018, but he hasn’t been much good for a while ...

Slade has been excellent at 13 since 2018. Not sure what you are wanting from him, given the way we play. He’s sorted his defence out and is very consistent there- if you are criticising his play at 12, then that’s both fair and unfair at the same time .

Excellent for who? If you’re talking about Exeter, I’d agree. If you’re referring to England, I’d say he flatters to deceive more often than not and certainly doesn’t deserve to be described as ‘excellent’.

Even if we give him some latitude for moving from 13 to 12, I thought he had a poor and error-strewn game apart from one moment of class. That move was well executed, but that should be the minimum standard for a Tier 1 test player against a Georgian defence. Does it really deserve that much praise and does it excuse the errors? Personally, I’m not sure it does.

As I said, I do rate him highly, I’d just like to see him become more consistent and more influential.

[Puja]

Slade has been excellent at 13 since 2018. Not sure what you are wanting from him, given the way we play. He’s sorted his defence out and is very consistent there- if you are criticising his play at 12, then that’s both fair and unfair at the same time .

The thing that changed in 2018 was the return of Tuilagi and the use of him as a 12 - he hasn't really shown any England form outside of that partnership. I mean, he *was* set up to fail when we had the FFS midfield of Ford/Faz/Slade with three playmakers and no runners so it's not fair judging on that, but people are talking about "not being able to judge him when playing with Farrell" when he has played very well with Farrell before and the only changes are a shift in position and not playing alongside Manu, someone who will make any centre partner look good by the amount of attention he attracts.

I think he does need a burly 12 taking people's attention from him as he has at Exeter. Whether he can do that for England without Manu? Don't know.

Puja

‘Only a shift in position’....obviously you are winding me up.

I must confess to having been underwhelmed by Slade at 13 internationally until the last two years, but given the way we set up, he’s been pretty effective.

I am reliably informed that any two locks can play together and that the positions are basically the same; I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to centres.

I actually do think Slade has been excellent at 13 when playing Faz/Manu/Slade and having his passing in the 13 channel resulted in some gorgeous plays. He just can't do it at 12 and likely can't do it at 13 without a big 12 inside.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Saying he just can’t do it at 12 doesn’t seem quite fair. He’s had one game seemingly playing as Manu-lite, and then one game playing the Farrell 12 role.

It doesn’t sound like he was very good though either way, and I’m not sure if Eddie’s end goal is really to have him become a permanent 12 or not.

I still feel like like continuing what was built with him at 13 and giving Lawrence a go at 12 could have kept some of the familiarity and shapes we’ve seen with Faz/Manu/Slade.

Needing someone at 12 who challenges the line a bit seems like quite a reasonable ask for a 13 like him, especially when our 10 is incredibly passive in that regard.

[Banquo]

Youngs and Farrell aren’t the reason for him making more than one forward pass in promising situations. He played a big part in the move that lead to Daly’s try, but on the whole he was pretty inaccurate/poor.

Perhaps you could say he was under pressure, but if you can’t cope with the level of pressure Georgia bring, what happens when you play a better side?

Generally I rate Slade very highly - he’s just very hit and miss for England. I felt like he’d ‘arrived’ as a test player in 2018, but he hasn’t been much good for a while ...

Slade has been excellent at 13 since 2018. Not sure what you are wanting from him, given the way we play. He’s sorted his defence out and is very consistent there- if you are criticising his play at 12, then that’s both fair and unfair at the same time .

Excellent for who? If you’re talking about Exeter, I’d agree. If you’re referring to England, I’d say he flatters to deceive more often than not and certainly doesn’t deserve to be described as ‘excellent’.

Even if we give him some latitude for moving from 13 to 12, I thought he had a poor and error-strewn game apart from one moment of class. That move was well executed, but that should be the minimum standard for a Tier 1 test player against a Georgian defence. Does it really deserve that much praise and does it excuse the errors? Personally, I’m not sure it does.

As I said, I do rate him highly, I’d just like to see him become more consistent and more influential.

We will have to disagree- his all round play is consistently good now at 13. He makes a key contribution most games and his defence has really matured.

I’ve already said my piece about him at 12, which seems to be your bone of contention; he was poor v Georgia. But I saw that as a separate subject. He was playing outside a shit 10 in shit conditions, but should have been better. I’m not excusing any errors.

How you expect a 13 in our set up to be more influential than be good in defence and make the occasional excellent intervention in attack puzzles me. He has been excellent there for what he is being asked to do. Have you ever questioned why he looks so much better for Exeter, even allowing for the gulf tween club and intl rugby?

[Banquo]

The thing that changed in 2018 was the return of Tuilagi and the use of him as a 12 - he hasn't really shown any England form outside of that partnership. I mean, he *was* set up to fail when we had the FFS midfield of Ford/Faz/Slade with three playmakers and no runners so it's not fair judging on that, but people are talking about "not being able to judge him when playing with Farrell" when he has played very well with Farrell before and the only changes are a shift in position and not playing alongside Manu, someone who will make any centre partner look good by the amount of attention he attracts.

I think he does need a burly 12 taking people's attention from him as he has at Exeter. Whether he can do that for England without Manu? Don't know.

Puja

‘Only a shift in position’....obviously you are winding me up.

I must confess to having been underwhelmed by Slade at 13 internationally until the last two years, but given the way we set up, he’s been pretty effective.

I am reliably informed that any two locks can play together and that the positions are basically the same; I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to centres.

I actually do think Slade has been excellent at 13 when playing Faz/Manu/Slade and having his passing in the 13 channel resulted in some gorgeous plays. He just can't do it at 12 and likely can't do it at 13 without a big 12 inside.

Puja

Even though I know you are joking it’s another bad comparison.

Ford/manu/slade-jj seems a missed opportunity to me.

[Oakboy]

Saying that Slade only had one good moment yesterday is more than harsh, especially when that moment was something that the normal 'robot' 12 is incapable of. Slade may or may not be the answer at 12 but I'd like to see him get a few games with decent conditions and a better 9/10 pairing before getting too condemnatory.

Has anbody heard if Ford will be fit for next week? I have to say that I simply do not understand why Umaga is in the squad if he never even gets a bench slot against Italy and Georgia. Not being judged good enough to play against them for a couple of ten minute cameos must have done wonders for his confidence.

[Banquo]

Saying that Slade only had one good moment yesterday is more than harsh, especially when that moment was something that the normal 'robot' 12 is incapable of. Slade may or may not be the answer at 12 but I'd like to see him get a few games with decent conditions and a better 9/10 pairing before getting too condemnatory.

Has anbody heard if Ford will be fit for next week? I have to say that I simply do not understand why Umaga is in the squad if he never even gets a bench slot against Italy and Georgia. Not being judged good enough to play against them for a couple of ten minute cameos must have done wonders for his confidence.

He pretty much did have only one good moment, but more importantly several bad ones, whatever the mitigation. No condemnation, just observation. Not harsh, just fair.
It doesn’t mean he isn’t going to be very good at 12.

[fivepointer]

Has anbody heard if Ford will be fit for next week? I have to say that I simply do not understand why Umaga is in the squad if he never even gets a bench slot against Italy and Georgia. Not being judged good enough to play against them for a couple of ten minute cameos must have done wonders for his confidence.

I think Ford was 50/50 for yesterdays game so hopefully he'll be in contention for the Ireland game.

Umaga falls into the category of player who is just there in case of injury. Its pretty clear that he, along with a number of other players in the squad, wont get a minute of action over the next 3 weeks unless there is an injury.

[FKAS]

Has anbody heard if Ford will be fit for next week? I have to say that I simply do not understand why Umaga is in the squad if he never even gets a bench slot against Italy and Georgia. Not being judged good enough to play against them for a couple of ten minute cameos must have done wonders for his confidence.

I think Ford was 50/50 for yesterdays game so hopefully he'll be in contention for the Ireland game.

Umaga falls into the category of player who is just there in case of injury. Its pretty clear that he, along with a number of other players in the squad, wont get a minute of action over the next 3 weeks unless there is an injury.

Umaga was very fortunate to be there in the first place. I thought we'd brought him in to cap him and tie him to England going forward because Samoa are said to very keen. The fact he's not even been on the bench might suggest he's not shown up in training or has a bit of a niggle.

I'm hoping Ford isn't rushed back. Whilst we badly need some creation in the backline I'd rather we didn't risk him Vs Ireland if that means he might not make Wales. I'd rather scrape past Ireland and then put a big score on Wales.

[Oakboy]

Has anbody heard if Ford will be fit for next week? I have to say that I simply do not understand why Umaga is in the squad if he never even gets a bench slot against Italy and Georgia. Not being judged good enough to play against them for a couple of ten minute cameos must have done wonders for his confidence.

I think Ford was 50/50 for yesterdays game so hopefully he'll be in contention for the Ireland game.

Umaga falls into the category of player who is just there in case of injury. Its pretty clear that he, along with a number of other players in the squad, wont get a minute of action over the next 3 weeks unless there is an injury.

So, why not pick Simmonds who looked so very good in winning a European final? At some point, injuries/suspension/ loss of form might mean that a match-ready third FH needs to start an important match but nobody has been prepared. Simmonds off the bench for 20 minutes in each match might have answered questions at least. It just seems a bit short-sighted.

[Banquo]

Simmonds J is pretty unlucky imo

[Puja]

Simmonds J is pretty unlucky imo

I think we can all agree on that one.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Simmonds J is pretty unlucky imo

I think we can all agree on that one.

Puja

Scotland fielded their 3rd choce FH, didn't they? It is not impossible for both Ford and Farrell to be out. Who would Jones then choose? I can imagine Simmonds being picked ahead of Umaga and Smith. It's not hard to picture an important match and him being thrown in at the deep end on a hiding to nothing.

[fivepointer]

Its also far from unlikely that one of Ford/Farrell wouldnt be fit to start a game and then the other is injured during it. What then?
I'm guessing that Jones has had a look at Umaga and decided he's not ready. He's had the perfect opportunity with 2 easy games to introduce him and hasnt done so. I would be very surprised if he's in the 23 for Ireland, even if Ford isnt fit. Having opted for Umaga, i also think it highly unlikely he will rejig the squad and move Simmonds in.
I imagine Slade will be earmarked for 10 cover if Farrell cops an injury.
Where that leaves us beyond this series of games is basically at square one as far as building depth at 10 goes.

[Timbo]

If we’re saying that Slade turned a significant corner in the 2019 6N’s, my recollection is that he’s only played 1 game at 13 for England since? The Oz quarterfinal, where he was very decent.

Other than that it’s been these 2 games at 12 and some cameos at 15?

[Oakboy]

Its also far from unlikely that one of Ford/Farrell wouldnt be fit to start a game and then the other is injured during it. What then?
I'm guessing that Jones has had a look at Umaga and decided he's not ready. He's had the perfect opportunity with 2 easy games to introduce him and hasnt done so. I would be very surprised if he's in the 23 for Ireland, even if Ford isnt fit. Having opted for Umaga, i also think it highly unlikely he will rejig the squad and move Simmonds in.
I imagine Slade will be earmarked for 10 cover if Farrell cops an injury.
Where that leaves us beyond this series of games is basically at square one as far as building depth at 10 goes.

Agreed. Has an international head-coach ever depended on a single player as much as Jones does on Farrell? Woodward/Johnson perhaps? The crazy part of it is that Slade might be 2 or 3 player-injuries closer to playing FH for England than he is for Exeter. Having the courage of your convictions is one thing. Being ridiculously stubborn is another.

[Timbo]

If we’re saying that Slade turned a significant corner in the 2018 6N’s, my recollection is that he’s only played 1 game at 13 for England since? The Oz quarterfinal, where he was very decent.

Other than that it’s been these 2 games at 12 and some cameos at 15?

And actually, now I think about it, some of his games at 15 weren’t really “cameo’s”. He played the majority of the game there against Wales and did well and about 30 in the semi against NZ and was good.

And of the 2 matches at 12, he wasn’t really poor in the Italy game, he just got very little opportunity. So, in reality it’s just one poor performance since the beginning of 2019.

[Puja]

If we’re saying that Slade turned a significant corner in the 2018 6N’s, my recollection is that he’s only played 1 game at 13 for England since? The Oz quarterfinal, where he was very decent.

Other than that it’s been these 2 games at 12 and some cameos at 15?

A google tells me that he played the 2018 AIs at 13 (alongside Be Te'o) and all but one of the 2019 6N (alongside Manu)

Puja

[Timbo]

If we’re saying that Slade turned a significant corner in the 2018 6N’s, my recollection is that he’s only played 1 game at 13 for England since? The Oz quarterfinal, where he was very decent.

Other than that it’s been these 2 games at 12 and some cameos at 15?

A google tells me that he played the 2018 AIs at 13 (alongside Be Te'o) and all but one of the 2019 6N (alongside Manu)

Puja

Yes, I meant the 2019 6 Nations. Seasons and years all merge into one at the moment. It was the Ireland game and the 2019 tournament that seemed to propel him forwards into potentially England’s first choice 13. That fair? He’s barely played at 13 since, mainly through injury.

[Puja]

If we’re saying that Slade turned a significant corner in the 2018 6N’s, my recollection is that he’s only played 1 game at 13 for England since? The Oz quarterfinal, where he was very decent.

Other than that it’s been these 2 games at 12 and some cameos at 15?

A google tells me that he played the 2018 AIs at 13 (alongside Be Te'o) and all but one of the 2019 6N (alongside Manu)

Puja

Yes, I meant the 2019 6 Nations. Seasons and years all merge into one at the moment. It was the Ireland game and the 2019 tournament that seemed to propel him forwards into potentially England’s first choice 13. That fair? He’s barely played at 13 since, mainly through injury.

Oh, that I completely understand! I'm not sure exactly of your point though. Are you saying that he's not really a 13?

Puja