RugbyRebels

The trouble is, there was a lag between medical knowledge of concussion changing, and the game reacting to that change, and that lag is where any law suit is going to target.

Bringing up anything before 2005 (CTE first identified) isn't remotely useful, as the longer term effects simply weren't known. You also need to allow for a lag between experts in the field being aware, and rugby administrators being aware.
I certainly remember 2008 when Justin Harrison was KOd a couple of times in a match, and players from both teams ran obstruction to stop the medical staff getting to him early, I was a lone voice criticising the behaviour, whilst most were lauding it - and I wasn't criticising because of CTE (I didn't know it existed at that point), but second impact syndrome (which has long been known and acknowledged, and comes down to "players (should) know the risk").

By memory, it wasn't until 2013 with the film "concussion", and 2014 with George North's incidents that it became a widely known concern, and rugby started to react (ETA, it was a little before that, just as trials or 100% adopting medical concensus recommendations).
RFU introduce concussion education courses in 2014, HIAs introduced in 2015 (first trialled in 2012). There was also a change in 2012, as a knee-jerk before the film was released, that didn't really understand the problem, the one that had Barry O'Driscoll resigning - but was still ahead of rugby's peers.

So you've really got that 7 year period when CTE was known, but the rugby authorities didn't know.
The key time (for the authorities) is going to be between whenever it was that Barry O'Driscoll started complaining about it (I don't know when that was, and it being taken more seriously in 2014/15.

After that, you've either got to claim the the reaction wasn't strong enough, which would be a tough claim to make stand, as medical knowledge was changing year by year, as was rugby's reaction - or the claim is now against individual medics / coaches for ignoring the regulations.

It's not like the NFL example when the authorities were explicitly briefed, and given the opportunity to be involved from the very start, and actively covered it up.




ETA, in trying to confirm dates for things, especially Barry O'Driscoll's unhappiness - there was also an general medical panel convened in 2004 to look at it, with the IRB enacting the recommendations (3 weeks off, or return to play with a neurologist signing off).
So as of 2004 rugby per se is in the clear for acting in accordance with best medical knowledge of the time.
That seems to have been the case in 2008 as well - though the article I've found skips over that one, Dr O'Driscoll doesn't seem unhappy about it yet.
It was the IRB's reaction to the 2012 4-yearly concussion summit that upset Dr O'Driscoll - basically, the first attempts by the IRB to take more serious action were a bit bumbling, until 2014...

So really, and law suit has a 2 year window to claim that the sport's authorities weren't following best advice. After that, advice was being followed, and getting more stringent with each trial and new enactment.
After that, it's down to, for example, the Welsh medical staff being the only people watching the match to not notice that North was out cold after a knee to the head.


NB from that article Re: 2012 "Support for his convictions were hard to come by on the medical front, but within the rugby community, O’Driscoll was applauded by many of his peers." So even in 2012 it looks like the IRB was going with medical concensus, but Dr O'Driscoll wanted more.

It's going to be a tough law suit that claims "So you were following the medical concensus recommendations of the time, enacting the recommendations of the experts in the field - we feel that this was incompetent"

I know insufficient about concussion to comment in detail. Just thinking, though. When it says the 'unions', who will actually be sued? Is it a board of directors, a chief executive, the medical advisor or what? Is it the whole union as an entity?

Oakboy wrote:I know insufficient about concussion to comment in detail. Just thinking, though. When it says the 'unions', who will actually be sued? Is it a board of directors, a chief executive, the medical advisor or what? Is it the whole union as an entity?

I think it’ll just be Steve Diamond.

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I know insufficient about concussion to comment in detail. Just thinking, though. When it says the 'unions', who will actually be sued? Is it a board of directors, a chief executive, the medical advisor or what? Is it the whole union as an entity?

I think it’ll just be Steve Diamond.

Ah, we've guessed his reason for leaving. Wow.

Steve Thompson has joined the suit, along with Michael Lipman. I must say, it sounds fucking horrible to live with early onset dementia. I can see why they are looking for anything to ease the suffering.

Mr Mwenda wrote:Steve Thompson has joined the suit, along with Michael Lipman. I must say, it sounds fucking horrible to live with early onset dementia. I can see why they are looking for anything to ease the suffering.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... are_btn_tw

Steve Thompson: 'I can't remember winning the World Cup'
‘I don’t want to kill the game,’ says Steve Thompson. ‘I want it regulated.’
In an exclusive interview the former England hooker talks about living with dementia, feeling like ‘a bit of meat’ in his career and how, if he could go back, he would not play rugby

by Andy Bull

After Steve Thompson won the World Cup in 2003, he took part in the victory parade through the West End, was picked as one of the three best players in the world and went to Buckingham Palace, where they gave him an MBE. Thompson won a grand slam too, as well as a European Cup with Northampton Saints, and he played for the British & Irish Lions. Now, at the age of 42, he has been diagnosed with early onset dementia and probable chronic traumatic encephalopathy. “It’s the rugby that’s put me through this,” he says. And that’s why, if he could, he would undo all of it. “Some people go for the big lights, whereas I don’t want that. I never wanted that. I’d rather just have had a normal life.”

Thompson was on a job in Kendal not long ago, living away from home while he was repairing a burst water main. While he was there they were showing some of the England games from the 2003 World Cup on TV. He had never watched them back before, except for little bits and pieces when they were doing their post-match analysis during the tournament. But he did now. “And it was as if I was watching England play now. Except I was there. But I can’t remember at all being there. Honestly, I don’t know scores from any of the games.” A lot of his career is like that, patchy and full of gaps. He used to pride himself on his memory and have a head full of complicated lineout calls. “If you put them in now, not a chance. Not a chance.”


These days, he forgets. He forgets directions, which bits of a book he’s read and what TV shows he’s watched. Sometimes he even forgets his wife’s name. “I could look at Steph sometimes. And she says it’s like I’m a complete blank. And she’ll go: ‘I’m Steph.’ The name’s gone. Gone.” He suffers from anxiety, too, and has started having panic attacks. Sometimes he finds he gets aggressive for no good reason. “It’s weird. It’s a bit like an out-of-body experience, to be honest, and it happens a lot more now.”

And he wonders what the point of it all was, why he spent all those years playing a game that, he believes, has led him here. “I finished up with nothing really at the end of it.” Not even memories. “I can’t remember it. I’ve got no memorabilia. I’ve got no feelings about it. You see us lifting the World Cup and I can see me there jumping around. But I can’t remember it.” The money is gone, too. “No one could ever say that I’m money-orientated, because that’s the one thing I’m not. I just wanted a simple life. I would have liked to be able to work outside and use my body and my mind. That’s not going to happen now.”


What he does have is guilt. Steph is younger than him – “and I’m thinking, what have I done to her? She doesn’t deserve this.” She has taken the diagnosis in her stride. “She just went: ‘I’ll just have to care for you, won’t I?’” But he worries how she’ll cope. “I’m not a small bloke, you know, I’m 6ft 3in, 120 kilos. So if you’ve got to care for me, it’s quite a bit of meat to carry around.”

Thompson started playing when he was 15. “Was it a massive love of my life? No, no, not really. But it was a job. I happened to be good at it in those times. I enjoyed the company of the lads and things like that. But then would I do it again? No, I wouldn’t.” He has four kids, the youngest of them a one-year-old boy. They still go down to the local rugby club, for the social side. “But I don’t really want my boy playing rugby, the way it is at the moment.” He watches the players “knocking the hell out of each other” and he worries. “You know, when you’re younger, you feel a bit macho, and you feel like you can’t be broken.”

That’s how he was. Thompson was one of the first generation of professional players. When he started, he was training two nights a week. He remembers the switch to full-time training. “It was like: ‘So what do we do now, then?’ It felt like the coaches were thinking: ‘We’ll just knock the hell out of each other. That’s what we’ll do.’ And we did.” It was worse when he got called up to play for England. “It was so brutal during the week that you’d come home on the Thursday for your day off and I’d just be like: ‘I don’t think I can play, I feel utterly battered.’”


The game in those early professional years had a brutal culture, Thompson says. “They had us for that Six Nations period, and the autumn internationals, and they literally just beasted you until you fell apart.” They were back in training two days after they won the World Cup. A lot of them played for their clubs the next weekend. It made him feel like “a bit of meat”. But he was so anxious about being dropped that he got on with it.

He guesses a lot of players from that era may end up having similar problems. “I can see the numbers being high, especially for the first players to come through, what, ‘96-‘97 up to the mid-2000s, really.” He could see attitudes were changing by the end of his career. “The 2011 World Cup camp was completely different to the 2003 World Cup camp. In 2011 it was a lot more technical, whereas in 2003 you just had to beast yourself.”

Can you honestly say when you played you thought you might end up with dementia at age 40? Broken bones and ruined shoulders and knees maybe, but dementia?

I stopped playing a couple years ago for a variety of reasons - my first child, my wife being unwell, moving away from my childhood club and not being able to recapture the joy and love of playing for my mates. But recently I've been trying to get back into it. Second child aside, COVID, and then unfortunately a diagnosis that if I continue to wear contact lenses I risk going blind in one eye... I was all game for it. But having played one game in two years, at a low level, and been shocked at just how physical it was, I'm not sure now I want to take the risk.

Also, I remember the 3 week mandatory rest period after a concussion. I had no idea it was down to 6 days now. The other thing, is that this is not about clear shots where people are knocked out - it's abut repeated, percussive trauma.

Something has to change, in my opinion.

Peej wrote:Can you honestly say when you played you thought you might end up with dementia at age 40? Broken bones and ruined shoulders and knees maybe, but dementia?

No, but not did the neurosurgeons of the time.

I may be wrong here, but people can't be held responsible for not knowing things they had no way of knowing. A law suit would need to show that the IRB/WR knew that long term brain damage was an issue, and did too little about it (too little being defined by the behaviour of their peers, and/or tha advice of the experts).

Imdont expect Bill Beaumont to be an expert on concussion, but if he concpsults with someone who is, and enacts those recommendations, then surely he's not liable.

Peej wrote:Also, I remember the 3 week mandatory rest period after a concussion. I had no idea it was down to 6 days now. The other thing, is that this is not about clear shots where people are knocked out - it's abut repeated, percussive trauma.

Something has to change, in my opinion.

It's only 6 days if you're a professional (I think), who's going throught he return to play guidelines with medical sign-off.
It's all based off the best evidence available

More detail on their case here: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... legal-case

That Thompson interview is harrowing to read.

“In the old days it was a bit of a laugh. If someone got whacked in the head, it was: ‘Oh, look at him, he’s had a belt! He’ll be up in a minute.’” One of his doctors asked him how many concussions he’d had. Thompson asked him back what counted as a concussion. “Is it when you’re not totally out? And he said: ‘No, that’s not true any more.’ And I’m like: ‘Well, I was doing it every training session then, really, when you look at it.’

“The amount of head bangs I had in training. I was known for it. ‘Oh, he’s having a little sleep, he’ll get up in a minute.’” He remembers all the gruelling sessions on the scrum machines. “There’s so much pressure. They aren’t moving, they’ve got pegs in it, they’ve got people stood on it, and you drive into it, all that weight coming through.” He’d push until the point when his head started to go. “And suddenly, as the pressure comes off, you start getting the light, the little white dots, and you don’t know where you are for a few seconds.”

Puja

Was it Galthié coaching Stade that forced a horrendously concussed South African back onto the field, despite being nearly dead? Someone showed a clip on this board a while back. Something like that deserves action taken.

Which Tyler wrote:

Peej wrote:Can you honestly say when you played you thought you might end up with dementia at age 40? Broken bones and ruined shoulders and knees maybe, but dementia?

No, but not did the neurosurgeons of the time.

I may be wrong here, but people can't be held responsible for not knowing things they had no way of knowing. A law suit would need to show that the IRB/WR knew that long term brain damage was an issue, and did too little about it (too little being defined by the behaviour of their peers, and/or tha advice of the experts).

Imdont expect Bill Beaumont to be an expert on concussion, but if he concpsults with someone who is, and enacts those recommendations, then surely he's not liable.

Peej wrote:Also, I remember the 3 week mandatory rest period after a concussion. I had no idea it was down to 6 days now. The other thing, is that this is not about clear shots where people are knocked out - it's abut repeated, percussive trauma.

Something has to change, in my opinion.

It's only 6 days if you're a professional (I think), who's going throught he return to play guidelines with medical sign-off.
It's all based off the best evidence available

Of course, and I agree with that. So you can only say people accepted the risks they knew about. And as people began to learn more about the the risks, this should have seen changes far, far earlier. There's been a huge lag, and then problems have unwittingly and unintentionally been made worse by other changes (players getting bigger, more subs, more games etc)

Puja wrote:More detail on their case here: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... legal-case

That Thompson interview is harrowing to read.

“In the old days it was a bit of a laugh. If someone got whacked in the head, it was: ‘Oh, look at him, he’s had a belt! He’ll be up in a minute.’” One of his doctors asked him how many concussions he’d had. Thompson asked him back what counted as a concussion. “Is it when you’re not totally out? And he said: ‘No, that’s not true any more.’ And I’m like: ‘Well, I was doing it every training session then, really, when you look at it.’

“The amount of head bangs I had in training. I was known for it. ‘Oh, he’s having a little sleep, he’ll get up in a minute.’” He remembers all the gruelling sessions on the scrum machines. “There’s so much pressure. They aren’t moving, they’ve got pegs in it, they’ve got people stood on it, and you drive into it, all that weight coming through.” He’d push until the point when his head started to go. “And suddenly, as the pressure comes off, you start getting the light, the little white dots, and you don’t know where you are for a few seconds.”

Puja

Tommo appears to remember quite a lot yet not one minute of any of the WC games

“I can’t remember it."

That is the most terrifying thing for me. The aches and pains etc, they bring the memories, but without those, what's the point?

I do believe it is far better managed now though.

As for the cooldown period after a concussion, pros can do it in 6 days due to professional care. Everyone else I believe is 2 weeks I think, with youth being 3 weeks. Those cooldown periods assume that nothing goes wrong (headaches etc) during that time.

Which Tyler wrote:

Peej wrote:Can you honestly say when you played you thought you might end up with dementia at age 40? Broken bones and ruined shoulders and knees maybe, but dementia?

No, but not did the neurosurgeons of the time.

I may be wrong here, but people can't be held responsible for not knowing things they had no way of knowing. A law suit would need to show that the IRB/WR knew that long term brain damage was an issue, and did too little about it (too little being defined by the behaviour of their peers, and/or tha advice of the experts).

Imdont expect Bill Beaumont to be an expert on concussion, but if he concpsults with someone who is, and enacts those recommendations, then surely he's not liable.

Peej wrote:Also, I remember the 3 week mandatory rest period after a concussion. I had no idea it was down to 6 days now. The other thing, is that this is not about clear shots where people are knocked out - it's abut repeated, percussive trauma.

Something has to change, in my opinion.

It's only 6 days if you're a professional (I think), who's going throught he return to play guidelines with medical sign-off.
It's all based off the best evidence available

Given Bill retired early because of concussion he might know a bit

morepork wrote:Was it Galthié coaching Stade that forced a horrendously concussed South African back onto the field, despite being nearly dead? Someone showed a clip on this board a while back. Something like that deserves action taken.

Was it not Noves and his 13 centre can think of him name but yeah he was more or less comatose and noves sent him back out - 2 old school types

paddy no 11 wrote:

morepork wrote:Was it Galthié coaching Stade that forced a horrendously concussed South African back onto the field, despite being nearly dead? Someone showed a clip on this board a while back. Something like that deserves action taken.

Was it not Noves and his 13 centre can think of him name but yeah he was more or less comatose and noves sent him back out - 2 old school types

I think you are right.

But I can't remember.

Fritz was the 13

p/d wrote:

Puja wrote:More detail on their case here: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... legal-case

That Thompson interview is harrowing to read.

“In the old days it was a bit of a laugh. If someone got whacked in the head, it was: ‘Oh, look at him, he’s had a belt! He’ll be up in a minute.’” One of his doctors asked him how many concussions he’d had. Thompson asked him back what counted as a concussion. “Is it when you’re not totally out? And he said: ‘No, that’s not true any more.’ And I’m like: ‘Well, I was doing it every training session then, really, when you look at it.’

“The amount of head bangs I had in training. I was known for it. ‘Oh, he’s having a little sleep, he’ll get up in a minute.’” He remembers all the gruelling sessions on the scrum machines. “There’s so much pressure. They aren’t moving, they’ve got pegs in it, they’ve got people stood on it, and you drive into it, all that weight coming through.” He’d push until the point when his head started to go. “And suddenly, as the pressure comes off, you start getting the light, the little white dots, and you don’t know where you are for a few seconds.”

Puja

Tommo appears to remember quite a lot yet not one minute of any of the WC games

Speaking as someone who has a similar, if less serious problem, that is exactly what it's like. I can tell you about a party that I went to 10 years ago, but I can't tell you any memories of my father. It's not linear or predictable and it is f*cking awful.

Puja

Puja wrote:

p/d wrote:

Puja wrote:More detail on their case here: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... legal-case

That Thompson interview is harrowing to read.



Puja

Tommo appears to remember quite a lot yet not one minute of any of the WC games

Speaking as someone who has a similar, if less serious problem, that is exactly what it's like. I can tell you about a party that I went to 10 years ago, but I can't tell you any memories of my father. It's not linear or predictable and it is f*cking awful.

Puja

It was a slightly tongue in cheek comment.
Thankfully, I do remember chatting to him on Manly Beach 2003

p/d wrote:

Puja wrote:

p/d wrote:
Tommo appears to remember quite a lot yet not one minute of any of the WC games

Speaking as someone who has a similar, if less serious problem, that is exactly what it's like. I can tell you about a party that I went to 10 years ago, but I can't tell you any memories of my father. It's not linear or predictable and it is f*cking awful.

Puja

It was a slightly tongue in cheek comment.
Thankfully, I do remember chatting to him on Manly Beach 2003

The question of course has to be whether he remembers the greatest moment of his rugby career:



Puja

Puja wrote:

p/d wrote:

Puja wrote:
Speaking as someone who has a similar, if less serious problem, that is exactly what it's like. I can tell you about a party that I went to 10 years ago, but I can't tell you any memories of my father. It's not linear or predictable and it is f*cking awful.

Puja

It was a slightly tongue in cheek comment.
Thankfully, I do remember chatting to him on Manly Beach 2003

The question of course has to be whether he remembers the greatest moment of his rugby career:



Puja

Well he didn't remember to pass...........

p/d wrote:

Puja wrote:

p/d wrote:
It was a slightly tongue in cheek comment.
Thankfully, I do remember chatting to him on Manly Beach 2003

The question of course has to be whether he remembers the greatest moment of his rugby career:



Puja

Well he didn't remember to pass...........

Well, why would you when you know you've got a step like that for the last man?

Ugh, now I'm getting flashbacks to Zack Henry deciding he could beat the final defender rather than passing inside for a walkover last weekend.

Puja

"He'll remember that one" an unfortunate line on the commentary