6N Squad

[Bloggs]

I honestly think odogwu and Randall are only there to stop Italy and wales capping them

[fivepointer]

They're both showing great form so hopefully its more than just to deny 6N opponents of the chance to cap them. They both actually have to play, of course....

Odogwu has surely been brought in as a winger. I know he's been playing a bit at centre, but it would be one hell of a risk to play him at 13 in an international. He's a power runner rather than a glider, so will add the contrast between the other back 3 options picked. With Cokanasiga and Nowell absent having a more direct runner as an option makes some sense.

I can see getting a run off the bench, likewise Randall, probably against Italy.

Our schedule is Scotland (H), Italy (H), Wales (A), France (H) and Ireland (A)

[Raggs]

Right, I tend to prefer this place as my refuge for rugby discussion that comes close to being more reasoned, so here's asking for an opinion.

When I see young guys like Odogwu/Randall etc being called up (and umaga and barbeary beforehand etc), I tend to look at it as an overall positive thing for the player and their club. Yes, they don't have the player at training, but the player gets exposed to other coaches, other techniques, a "higher" standard, and sees the expectations required at the top level, and therefore will hopefully work harder all round.

Others seem to see it as disastrous unless the player is actually playing in games?

[Digby]

Without doubt getting a look at the test environment, at what other players are doing in that grouping and where your standards are vs theirs is incredibly useful.

[Puja]

Right, I tend to prefer this place as my refuge for rugby discussion that comes close to being more reasoned, so here's asking for an opinion.

When I see young guys like Odogwu/Randall etc being called up (and umaga and barbeary beforehand etc), I tend to look at it as an overall positive thing for the player and their club. Yes, they don't have the player at training, but the player gets exposed to other coaches, other techniques, a "higher" standard, and sees the expectations required at the top level, and therefore will hopefully work harder all round.

Others seem to see it as disastrous unless the player is actually playing in games?

I absolutely agree with you - quite apart from the honour of having trained up a player good enough to play for England, there's no doubt that those players bring back an understanding of what they need to do to be great and a determination to get there (I have the same opinion of the Lions as well).

Just look at the differences between TCurry and BCurry - one could argue that there was very little between them at first and merely luck of the draw that Ben got injured before their first England game and Tom took his place, but there's no doubt that Tom is the superior player now.

Mind, that is during a regular season. During this bizarre confusion of occasional fixtures masquerading as the 2020-2021 season, it's a rare occasion that an international player will appear for his club, so it's a negative in that respect. However, this season is entirely irrelevant, so you're probably better not having the player this season and having an improved one for next year.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Getting young players in, whether they are full squad members or "apprentices", strikes me as a good idea.

Obviously its nice to see a young player getting a game, but even if they dont the experience should hopefully be beneficial.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Puja, I see and largely agree with the arguments for playing Odogwu at 13 but it's going to be too easy to smash him if he's left in a backline by himself with the usual willow thin speedsters in the back three.

I'd rather see him on the wing with Lawrence at 13. Daly and May can patrol the backfield between them and maybe drop Ford back when defending to give a tactical kicking option with Odogwu in the line. You can be flexible with tactics. Would give Ford a lot more option ball in hand and give the speed merchants more space with which to attack.

I get your logic, but there's no hole on the wing for him though. May and Watson have 11 and 14 sewn up and 15's between Daly and Malins.

I am a fan of Lawrence, but he's not looked ready for international level so far. I think it might still be too early for him.

Puja

I don't rate Watson that highly. He's a turnstile in defence and mediocre under the high ball. He's got a wicked step and pace but you don't see him hunting down kicks like May. He's the luxury option in the backline for me.

Lawrence didn't shine but he was the sole carrying outlet in a backline with Farrell playing an age behind the gain line. Always likely to be a miserable time for him. Give Ford the chance to play flat and have Lawrence and Odogwu hitting lines for him and defences will be opened up. All he needs is a soft shoulder and it gain line break time. The back three don't offer that currently and Farrell couldn't run a line through a paper bag.

For me it was the reason the backline was so underwhelming in the Autumn the balance just wasn't there. We've used Manu to mask the problem of balance previously but if he's not there the balance isn't either. The Farrell/Slade combo is awful.

There's bollocks, and then there is this level of bollocks! This is like Gavin Williamson levels. Watson is nothing like a turnstile in defence, not even close and he's had one bad game under the high ball.

[TheDasher]

I get your logic, but there's no hole on the wing for him though. May and Watson have 11 and 14 sewn up and 15's between Daly and Malins.

I am a fan of Lawrence, but he's not looked ready for international level so far. I think it might still be too early for him.

Puja

I don't rate Watson that highly. He's a turnstile in defence and mediocre under the high ball. He's got a wicked step and pace but you don't see him hunting down kicks like May. He's the luxury option in the backline for me.

Lawrence didn't shine but he was the sole carrying outlet in a backline with Farrell playing an age behind the gain line. Always likely to be a miserable time for him. Give Ford the chance to play flat and have Lawrence and Odogwu hitting lines for him and defences will be opened up. All he needs is a soft shoulder and it gain line break time. The back three don't offer that currently and Farrell couldn't run a line through a paper bag.

For me it was the reason the backline was so underwhelming in the Autumn the balance just wasn't there. We've used Manu to mask the problem of balance previously but if he's not there the balance isn't either. The Farrell/Slade combo is awful.

There's bollocks, and then there is this level of bollocks! This is like Gavin Williamson levels. Watson is nothing like a turnstile in defence, not even close and he's had one bad game under the high ball.

Quite. Watson is phenomenal under the high ball, one of the very best wingers England have had in this skillset.

[FKAS]

I get your logic, but there's no hole on the wing for him though. May and Watson have 11 and 14 sewn up and 15's between Daly and Malins.

I am a fan of Lawrence, but he's not looked ready for international level so far. I think it might still be too early for him.

Puja

I don't rate Watson that highly. He's a turnstile in defence and mediocre under the high ball. He's got a wicked step and pace but you don't see him hunting down kicks like May. He's the luxury option in the backline for me.

Lawrence didn't shine but he was the sole carrying outlet in a backline with Farrell playing an age behind the gain line. Always likely to be a miserable time for him. Give Ford the chance to play flat and have Lawrence and Odogwu hitting lines for him and defences will be opened up. All he needs is a soft shoulder and it gain line break time. The back three don't offer that currently and Farrell couldn't run a line through a paper bag.

For me it was the reason the backline was so underwhelming in the Autumn the balance just wasn't there. We've used Manu to mask the problem of balance previously but if he's not there the balance isn't either. The Farrell/Slade combo is awful.

There's bollocks, and then there is this level of bollocks! This is like Gavin Williamson levels. Watson is nothing like a turnstile in defence, not even close and he's had one bad game under the high ball.

I said mediocre under the high ball, means of average quality. Would you say he's dominant?

He puts his body on the line to be fair to him he's just not a great defender.

Give him the ball one on one that's what he's in the team for he can side step you in a phonebox. Problem is we aren't creating those chances because the attack is to lateral. For me his continued selection is like partnering Slade with Farrell. Including an eye catching player even though he doesn't fit with the team. If we had a midfield that was on the front foot then yeah he'd be scoring every week so get him in there. As it is we are not and there's going to be a lot of kicking if we don't have more direct options to test the opposition defence. A tactical kicking game in poor conditions doesn't suit our back three either.

[Danno]

So who takes his spot?

[I R Geech]

So who takes his spot?

Nowell? Though Watson should be 15 with Daly at 13.

[Mikey Brown]

And Daly should be at 13 because?

[I R Geech]

And Daly should be at 13 because?

He’s not good enough at 15, but is/was an outstanding 13.

[Danno]

Nowell is injured, Daly at FB or 13 is another conversation entirely. Daly never played 13 for Eng afaik and would basically be Slade version 1.02 there at best

Edit: Nowell is *always* injured

[Mikey Brown]

Nowell is probably starting on the opposite wing to JSD in my 'most injured England XV of all time' team, though Cokanasiga is building quite a reputation for himself already at such a young age. He could eclipse them both.

[Danno]

Nowell is probably starting on the opposite wing to JSD in my 'most injured England XV of all time' team, though Cokanasiga is building quite a reputation for himself already at such a young age. He could eclipse them both.

I demand that you start a new thread

[Epaminondas Pules]

I don't rate Watson that highly. He's a turnstile in defence and mediocre under the high ball. He's got a wicked step and pace but you don't see him hunting down kicks like May. He's the luxury option in the backline for me.

Lawrence didn't shine but he was the sole carrying outlet in a backline with Farrell playing an age behind the gain line. Always likely to be a miserable time for him. Give Ford the chance to play flat and have Lawrence and Odogwu hitting lines for him and defences will be opened up. All he needs is a soft shoulder and it gain line break time. The back three don't offer that currently and Farrell couldn't run a line through a paper bag.

For me it was the reason the backline was so underwhelming in the Autumn the balance just wasn't there. We've used Manu to mask the problem of balance previously but if he's not there the balance isn't either. The Farrell/Slade combo is awful.

There's bollocks, and then there is this level of bollocks! This is like Gavin Williamson levels. Watson is nothing like a turnstile in defence, not even close and he's had one bad game under the high ball.

I said mediocre under the high ball, means of average quality. Would you say he's dominant?

He puts his body on the line to be fair to him he's just not a great defender.

Give him the ball one on one that's what he's in the team for he can side step you in a phonebox. Problem is we aren't creating those chances because the attack is to lateral. For me his continued selection is like partnering Slade with Farrell. Including an eye catching player even though he doesn't fit with the team. If we had a midfield that was on the front foot then yeah he'd be scoring every week so get him in there. As it is we are not and there's going to be a lot of kicking if we don't have more direct options to test the opposition defence. A tactical kicking game in poor conditions doesn't suit our back three either.

Yes he is dominant. Even a cursory glance at him playing for England would highlight this, and his chase is excellent.

And his defence is miles away from a turnstile. He’s a very good defender including intelligent interventions to close down attacks. At fullback he’s an excellent last ditch defender too. A turnstile is Mallinder. You’re equating Watson with Mallinder. That’s a bigger pile of bollocks than Buster Gonad!

[FKAS]

There's bollocks, and then there is this level of bollocks! This is like Gavin Williamson levels. Watson is nothing like a turnstile in defence, not even close and he's had one bad game under the high ball.

I said mediocre under the high ball, means of average quality. Would you say he's dominant?

He puts his body on the line to be fair to him he's just not a great defender.

Give him the ball one on one that's what he's in the team for he can side step you in a phonebox. Problem is we aren't creating those chances because the attack is to lateral. For me his continued selection is like partnering Slade with Farrell. Including an eye catching player even though he doesn't fit with the team. If we had a midfield that was on the front foot then yeah he'd be scoring every week so get him in there. As it is we are not and there's going to be a lot of kicking if we don't have more direct options to test the opposition defence. A tactical kicking game in poor conditions doesn't suit our back three either.

Yes he is dominant. Even a cursory glance at him playing for England would highlight this, and his chase is excellent.

And his defence is miles away from a turnstile. He’s a very good defender including intelligent interventions to close down attacks. At fullback he’s an excellent last ditch defender too. A turnstile is Mallinder. You’re equating Watson with Mallinder. That’s a bigger pile of bollocks than Buster Gonad!

Sorry I didn't realise you were Watson's mother. Have a good Sunday Mrs Watson, best of luck to your flawless son this 6N campaign.

[FKAS]

And Daly should be at 13 because?

He’s not good enough at 15, but is/was an outstanding 13.

That was some time ago. He'd probably be best on the wing these days. He likes to attack from out wide anyway, we could do with a fullback that can come into the line a little more if we are still lumbered with Farrell at 12.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I said mediocre under the high ball, means of average quality. Would you say he's dominant?

He puts his body on the line to be fair to him he's just not a great defender.

Give him the ball one on one that's what he's in the team for he can side step you in a phonebox. Problem is we aren't creating those chances because the attack is to lateral. For me his continued selection is like partnering Slade with Farrell. Including an eye catching player even though he doesn't fit with the team. If we had a midfield that was on the front foot then yeah he'd be scoring every week so get him in there. As it is we are not and there's going to be a lot of kicking if we don't have more direct options to test the opposition defence. A tactical kicking game in poor conditions doesn't suit our back three either.

Yes he is dominant. Even a cursory glance at him playing for England would highlight this, and his chase is excellent.

And his defence is miles away from a turnstile. He’s a very good defender including intelligent interventions to close down attacks. At fullback he’s an excellent last ditch defender too. A turnstile is Mallinder. You’re equating Watson with Mallinder. That’s a bigger pile of bollocks than Buster Gonad!

Sorry I didn't realise you were Watson's mother. Have a good Sunday Mrs Watson, best of luck to your flawless son this 6N campaign.

Ah diddums. If you’re going to make utter shit statements expect to get called on it. And no, he’s not infallible, but some semblance of reality would probably help with your arguments. Calling him a turnstile is akin to saying that May is a bit slow for a wing.

[Beasties]

Nowell is injured, Daly at FB or 13 is another conversation entirely. Daly never played 13 for Eng afaik and would basically be Slade version 1.02 there at best

Edit: Nowell is *always* injured

Daly has filled in at 13 in extremis I think, but having Farrell at 12 and Daly at 13 makes me shudder. Who mentioned turnstiles?

[Puja]

Yes he is dominant. Even a cursory glance at him playing for England would highlight this, and his chase is excellent.

And his defence is miles away from a turnstile. He’s a very good defender including intelligent interventions to close down attacks. At fullback he’s an excellent last ditch defender too. A turnstile is Mallinder. You’re equating Watson with Mallinder. That’s a bigger pile of bollocks than Buster Gonad!

Sorry I didn't realise you were Watson's mother. Have a good Sunday Mrs Watson, best of luck to your flawless son this 6N campaign.

Ah diddums. If you’re going to make utter shit statements expect to get called on it. And no, he’s not infallible, but some semblance of reality would probably help with your arguments. Calling him a turnstile is akin to saying that May is a bit slow for a wing.

Okay, we've both got our licks in - we're now done with this argument here before it devolves any further.

Mod

[Oakboy]

IMO, debate about the 11, 13, 14 and 15 shirts remains very much a fringe subject as long as Youngs, Ford and Farrell are at 9, 10 and 12. That trio will always supply slow ball and too much kicked ball for the others to have fair game contributions. May is arguably the perfect combination of 'attacking maverick'/'defensive nutcase' to prosper despite stodge from the game management. Slade will always be tidy with little workable supply. Daly should always have been on the wing and Watson at FB but both struggle to impress with Jones's strategy and tactics.

I am not the only one falling out of love with the game, I suspect. It would be so exciting to see an England XV selected without the YFF bore trio. It is not going to happen with Jones obviously. My prayers for medium-term injuries to the three remain unanswered.

[I R Geech]

IMO, debate about the 11, 13, 14 and 15 shirts remains very much a fringe subject as long as Youngs, Ford and Farrell are at 9, 10 and 12. That trio will always supply slow ball and too much kicked ball for the others to have fair game contributions. May is arguably the perfect combination of 'attacking maverick'/'defensive nutcase' to prosper despite stodge from the game management. Slade will always be tidy with little workable supply. Daly should always have been on the wing and Watson at FB but both struggle to impress with Jones's strategy and tactics.

I am not the only one falling out of love with the game, I suspect. It would be so exciting to see an England XV selected without the YFF bore trio. It is not going to happen with Jones obviously. My prayers for medium-term injuries to the three remain unanswered.

Nailed it.

[Digby]

So who takes his spot?

Cokanasiga might be the next cab off the rank, and he is not a better defender than Watson. Even if I laughed at Watson's defence from 15 Vs Leicester a few weeks back