padprop wrote:I'm a wasps fan, but even through rose-tinted glasses watching this game and seeing that Umaga is ahead of Smith in the english pecking order is comical.
Yeah, Smith is fantastic. Not just for his age. He's just one of the best English 10s in general.
It really doesn't matter though if Smith, Simmonds, Umaga, are MOTM and topping every single stat every single week, nobody is getting ahead of Ford (without Farrell stepping in at 10) which is a strange situation. Form has become a completely irrelevant discussion regarding half-backs.
Although Ford was exceptional in how he controlled the game Vs Bath and a Tigers team virtually identical to that which beat Bath exerted no control at all Vs Sale without Ford at the helm.
If we have the same directionless backline as the Autumn we will be kicking the coating off the ball again though.
I'd like to see young Smith back in the EPS though, seems to have been rounding his game out nicely and a little more exposure to the international environment would be good for him.
padprop wrote:I'm a wasps fan, but even through rose-tinted glasses watching this game and seeing that Umaga is ahead of Smith in the english pecking order is comical.
Yeah, Smith is fantastic. Not just for his age. He's just one of the best English 10s in general.
It really doesn't matter though if Smith, Simmonds, Umaga, are MOTM and topping every single stat every single week, nobody is getting ahead of Ford (without Farrell stepping in at 10) which is a strange situation. Form has become a completely irrelevant discussion regarding half-backs.
Although Ford was exceptional in how he controlled the game Vs Bath and a Tigers team virtually identical to that which beat Bath exerted no control at all Vs Sale without Ford at the helm.
If we have the same directionless backline as the Autumn we will be kicking the coating off the ball again though.
I'd like to see young Smith back in the EPS though, seems to have been rounding his game out nicely and a little more exposure to the international environment would be good for him.
Smith is the 2nd best FH available to England, but he won't be picked by Eddie or by many coaches because his biggest weakness is his defence...and we all know the point of a 10 is to defend...
padprop wrote:I'm a wasps fan, but even through rose-tinted glasses watching this game and seeing that Umaga is ahead of Smith in the english pecking order is comical.
Yeah, Smith is fantastic. Not just for his age. He's just one of the best English 10s in general.
It really doesn't matter though if Smith, Simmonds, Umaga, are MOTM and topping every single stat every single week, nobody is getting ahead of Ford (without Farrell stepping in at 10) which is a strange situation. Form has become a completely irrelevant discussion regarding half-backs.
Although Ford was exceptional in how he controlled the game Vs Bath and a Tigers team virtually identical to that which beat Bath exerted no control at all Vs Sale without Ford at the helm.
If we have the same directionless backline as the Autumn we will be kicking the coating off the ball again though.
I'd like to see young Smith back in the EPS though, seems to have been rounding his game out nicely and a little more exposure to the international environment would be good for him.
It wasn't meant as a dig at Ford or Farrell themselves, more that they can both play like garbage for their clubs (or just not play at all) and it doesn't actually make any difference regarding England selection. Either one of them could turn out for their club and literally take a dump in the middle of the pitch if they wanted to, but they would will still make the 23 ahead of Smith or Simmonds. It must be odd for them now being too seasoned to play "apprentice", basically just waiting for some injuries in order to get a shot.
I'm sure Ford/Farrell are doing a reasonable job with this game plan, we still win quite a lot after all, so it's not that I think Smith/Simmonds would instantly do better without any tactical adjustment.
Mikey Brown wrote:
Yeah, Smith is fantastic. Not just for his age. He's just one of the best English 10s in general.
It really doesn't matter though if Smith, Simmonds, Umaga, are MOTM and topping every single stat every single week, nobody is getting ahead of Ford (without Farrell stepping in at 10) which is a strange situation. Form has become a completely irrelevant discussion regarding half-backs.
Although Ford was exceptional in how he controlled the game Vs Bath and a Tigers team virtually identical to that which beat Bath exerted no control at all Vs Sale without Ford at the helm.
If we have the same directionless backline as the Autumn we will be kicking the coating off the ball again though.
I'd like to see young Smith back in the EPS though, seems to have been rounding his game out nicely and a little more exposure to the international environment would be good for him.
It wasn't meant as a dig at Ford or Farrell themselves, more that they can both play like garbage for their clubs (or just not play at all) and it doesn't actually make any difference regarding England selection. Either one of them could turn out for their club and literally take a dump in the middle of the pitch if they wanted to, but they would will still make the 23 ahead of Smith or Simmonds. It must be odd for them now being too seasoned to play "apprentice", basically just waiting for some injuries in order to get a shot.
I'm sure Ford/Farrell are doing a reasonable job with this game plan, we still win quite a lot after all, so it's not that I think Smith/Simmonds would instantly do better without any tactical adjustment.
IF, IF, Jones could only pick one of Ford, Farrell or Youngs, maybe whoever was at 10 could justify their place OR NOT. Picking all three is the problem. Jones justifies all three with results. The crazy part is that he has no idea whether the team could produce better results by playing better rugby. Why should he if we win? Well, perhaps we are good enough to beat opposing teams more convincingly. Why not try? That's what I will never understand.
Epaminondas Pules wrote:George Ford is a beast in defence. Absolute monster.
I wouldn't call him a monster but he's very good. It's just one more reason why he's ahead of Smith and why Smith should be in camp learning off him, because Ford wasn't always a great defender. In fact, they're similar, in that Smith seems willing enough, he's just lacking technique and expertise.
And Smith needs to learn the concentration Ford brings. To be on it and putting together the kind of multi-phase moves he can build...is pretty damn impressive. If Smith can get half as good, with his running threat he'd be a pretty special player.
Umaga had a bad game but I'm not sure why everyone has jumped on him so badly. We don't need a new FH (for eng) for years it's a position of strength. When he is on form he is a joy to watch. Let's just let him develop.
Not unreasonable to assess the merits of Umaga and Smith given one is in Englands shadow squad and one isn't.
I like Umaga and consider him a real talent. He has weaknesses but is young enough to work on them and become a much better player. However, he is very obviously an inferior player to Smith (not just based on yesterdays game) and it seems perverse that he is ahead of Smith in the pecking order.
twitchy wrote:When he is on form he is a joy to watch. Let's just let him develop.
I’d like to think most would agree with that.
I feel the issue is more that we know he’s not ready for the step up, yet is 3rd choice for England ahead of two guys who are consistently pretty fantastic. Does Jones have someone else leapfrog him in to the England squad if F/F pick up an injury? He clearly puts a lot of emphasis on time/familiarity in camp so I can’t see it happening.
Maybe not an immediate concern, but another quirky Jonesism.
He may be a joy to watch when on form, but he is in rank form currently. he has no middle ground, and he still misses at least one touch finder per game.
twitchy wrote:When he is on form he is a joy to watch. Let's just let him develop.
I’d like to think most would agree with that.
I feel the issue is more that we know he’s not ready for the step up, yet is 3rd choice for England ahead of two guys who are consistently pretty fantastic. Does Jones have someone else leapfrog him in to the England squad if F/F pick up an injury? He clearly puts a lot of emphasis on time/familiarity in camp so I can’t see it happening.
Maybe not an immediate concern, but another quirky Jonesism.
This. Totally.
Ultimately, if either Ford or Farrell were injured, in theory the guy that would be drafted in (not that I have anything against him - he's talented) is not playing nearly as consistently, or as well as Simmonds or Smith.
I wonder if Jones sees Smith in a similar way to how he saw Cipriani, i.e. if he's in, it's as a starter, and we have to completely change how we play.
It's still weird though because as far as playing style Umaga's not exactly going to be a kick first kind of fly half. Maybe Umaga is still very much an apprentice whereas Smith is now past that stage? Or maybe Umaga is seen more as a Slade type who can compliment in midfield?
Who knows?! Should just give up trying to second guess Eddie I suppose...
I can't see Eddie ever going for someone as inconsistent as Umaga, particularly with his kicking. It's just counter so many of his other selections. Which is why it's weird he's in the squads, let alone that he's being outperformed by others.
I'd be ok with sticking to FnF, but if, say, Ford goes down, we aren't exactly blessed with backup 12s to fill in when Farrell moves inside, so while 10 is a strong position, injury to either has a major knock on effect. It wouldn't hurt to get someone else a bit of game time
And whoever was complaining about Healey is spot on, he was even more fucking unbearable than usual
