Ford or Farrel?

[Raggs]

And Ford is benched .

[Mikey Brown]

Eddie probably watched the video.

[Which Tyler]

We've seen consistently that when Ford is missing, we perform a lot worse.

Have we ever seen him picked without Farrell in the 23, with an attacking game plan and the feeedom to play whatever is in front of him?

Since Ford's first start for England; and just looking at results, not looking at game plan or freedom to play heads-up

Ford without Farrell:
33 Eng v Wal 19, 11 August 2019
48 Eng v Sam 14, 25 November 2017
21 Eng v Arg 8, 11 November 2017
25 Arg v Eng 35, 17 June 2017
34 Arg v Eng 38, 10 June 2017
27 Eng v Wal 13, 29 May 2016
25 Fra v Eng 20, 22 August 2015
55 Eng v Fra 35, 21 March 2015
25 Eng v Sco 13, 14 March 2015
19 Ire v Eng 9, 01 March 2015
47 Eng v Ita 17, 14 February 2015
16 Wal v Eng 21, 6 February 2015


Farrell without Ford:
40 Eng v Geo 0, 14 November 2020
5 Ita v Eng 34, 31 October 2020
10 RSA v Eng 25, 23 June 2018
19 Eng v Fra 14, 15 August 2015

[Mr Mwenda]

Has EJ ever not had Ford in the 23 if he's fit? Perhaps Cipriani's game v SA? I get the impression Jones rates Ford very highly but is trying to find effective balances in the backs. Thinking of Squidge's video it may be that Ford's speed of thought is wasted on the plodders around at times - that does sound strange, mind.

[Oakboy]

We've seen consistently that when Ford is missing, we perform a lot worse.

Have we ever seen him picked without Farrell in the 23, with an attacking game plan and the feeedom to play whatever is in front of him?

There you are, others have given you examples.

But with Farrell at 12 it's the same. Or when Ford is on the bench. You can see us suddenly reeling in points deficits when he arrives.

And the video also addresses your oft repeated bugbear: "I never see Ford bossing Farrell around, it's always Farrell in charge" as Ford literally tells Farrell what to do in almost every clip involving the 2 of them.

Stom, I've never denied Ford's skills. Many years ago we had a big debate on here about the relative merits of two young FHs: Ford and Burns. I was in the minority arguing that Ford was the better of the two.

There are two issues for me: 1. What Ford can do v what Ford DOES do; 2. Ford at 10 apparently ALWAYS means Farrell at 12 - why?

I am coming around to accepting that Ford is the best at applying Jones's playing style requirements and, as such, will be in the 10 shirt most of the time. What I do not know, quite simply, is how good Ford is with a different head coach playing a different style. Anybody who thinks Ford is currently giving of his best as a FH needs to explain it to me. Again, quite simply, how can he be with Youngs at 9 and Farrell at 12? I still wonder how Ford can be happy playing such a restricted game. Would he have revelled at 10 for Quins in that match v Wasps like Smith did? I imagine so - in which case how can he not be bored stiff playing for England?

Taking it one stage further, the collective unit of Jones, Youngs, Ford and Farrell is getting remarkably little out of the other backs, game on game. IMO (probably out of line with many, I accept) Slade, May, Daly and Watson are right up there with any outside unit in the world game. Slade, for example, has wonderful hands and gets to use them two or three times a match only - if he is lucky.

[FKAS]

We've seen consistently that when Ford is missing, we perform a lot worse.

Have we ever seen him picked without Farrell in the 23, with an attacking game plan and the feeedom to play whatever is in front of him?

There you are, others have given you examples.

But with Farrell at 12 it's the same. Or when Ford is on the bench. You can see us suddenly reeling in points deficits when he arrives.

And the video also addresses your oft repeated bugbear: "I never see Ford bossing Farrell around, it's always Farrell in charge" as Ford literally tells Farrell what to do in almost every clip involving the 2 of them.

Presumably people base this on Farrell doing the talking in huddles and in defence. Farrell is after all the captain and defensive leader so he's going to be a voice on the pitch. The video did show how Ford marshalls the attack well.

Ford being lined up to save the day again it seems. The concern is that he'll come on to replace Lawrence and will be without the tools to do so. Probably the best we can hope is Farrell pulls something in the warm up.

[Stom]

Have we ever seen him picked without Farrell in the 23, with an attacking game plan and the feeedom to play whatever is in front of him?

There you are, others have given you examples.

But with Farrell at 12 it's the same. Or when Ford is on the bench. You can see us suddenly reeling in points deficits when he arrives.

And the video also addresses your oft repeated bugbear: "I never see Ford bossing Farrell around, it's always Farrell in charge" as Ford literally tells Farrell what to do in almost every clip involving the 2 of them.

Stom, I've never denied Ford's skills. Many years ago we had a big debate on here about the relative merits of two young FHs: Ford and Burns. I was in the minority arguing that Ford was the better of the two.

There are two issues for me: 1. What Ford can do v what Ford DOES do; 2. Ford at 10 apparently ALWAYS means Farrell at 12 - why?

I am coming around to accepting that Ford is the best at applying Jones's playing style requirements and, as such, will be in the 10 shirt most of the time. What I do not know, quite simply, is how good Ford is with a different head coach playing a different style. Anybody who thinks Ford is currently giving of his best as a FH needs to explain it to me. Again, quite simply, how can he be with Youngs at 9 and Farrell at 12? I still wonder how Ford can be happy playing such a restricted game. Would he have revelled at 10 for Quins in that match v Wasps like Smith did? I imagine so - in which case how can he not be bored stiff playing for England?

Taking it one stage further, the collective unit of Jones, Youngs, Ford and Farrell is getting remarkably little out of the other backs, game on game. IMO (probably out of line with many, I accept) Slade, May, Daly and Watson are right up there with any outside unit in the world game. Slade, for example, has wonderful hands and gets to use them two or three times a match only - if he is lucky.

Because it's not "if Ford is at 10" but "Farrell must play".

For whatever reason, he is the messiah.

I don't get it.

I don't mean he's a terrible player, and considering our options I'm perfectly happy with him at 12. But when we're going for Lawrence at 12, I'd pick Ford over Farrell every time.

[Stom]

Have we ever seen him picked without Farrell in the 23, with an attacking game plan and the feeedom to play whatever is in front of him?

There you are, others have given you examples.

But with Farrell at 12 it's the same. Or when Ford is on the bench. You can see us suddenly reeling in points deficits when he arrives.

And the video also addresses your oft repeated bugbear: "I never see Ford bossing Farrell around, it's always Farrell in charge" as Ford literally tells Farrell what to do in almost every clip involving the 2 of them.

Presumably people base this on Farrell doing the talking in huddles and in defence. Farrell is after all the captain and defensive leader so he's going to be a voice on the pitch. The video did show how Ford marshalls the attack well.

Ford being lined up to save the day again it seems. The concern is that he'll come on to replace Lawrence and will be without the tools to do so. Probably the best we can hope is Farrell pulls something in the warm up.

He'll have the tools without Lawrence, the question is whether he'd have enough time. Remember that he doesn't force things or simply "make things happen" in the way that Cipriani or Smith do, he just sees what the opposition are doing and adapts to that.

He'll find plenty of spaces in the Scottish defence, but whether he has enough time to actually take advantage is a different question. If he has time with Genge still on the pitch, great.

[FKAS]

There you are, others have given you examples.

But with Farrell at 12 it's the same. Or when Ford is on the bench. You can see us suddenly reeling in points deficits when he arrives.

And the video also addresses your oft repeated bugbear: "I never see Ford bossing Farrell around, it's always Farrell in charge" as Ford literally tells Farrell what to do in almost every clip involving the 2 of them.

Presumably people base this on Farrell doing the talking in huddles and in defence. Farrell is after all the captain and defensive leader so he's going to be a voice on the pitch. The video did show how Ford marshalls the attack well.

Ford being lined up to save the day again it seems. The concern is that he'll come on to replace Lawrence and will be without the tools to do so. Probably the best we can hope is Farrell pulls something in the warm up.

He'll have the tools without Lawrence, the question is whether he'd have enough time. Remember that he doesn't force things or simply "make things happen" in the way that Cipriani or Smith do, he just sees what the opposition are doing and adapts to that.

He'll find plenty of spaces in the Scottish defence, but whether he has enough time to actually take advantage is a different question. If he has time with Genge still on the pitch, great.

A lot easier to manipulate a defence and create those holes if you've got a direct runner in the backline to stop the defence drifting into any space you create. Harris is a good defensive organiser at 13 and the Scottish flankers are very good and very mobile. I think there will be space but we are going to have to work hard to earn it.

Now I've said that watch us score after less than 5 minutes being played.

[Danno]

Now I've said that watch us score after less than 5 minutes being played.

I would love to see us rediscover that habit

[Peej]

Interesting stats reported today. England have won just four Six Nations games since 2015 (two of them against Italy) with Farrell playing 10.

But as Jones also said "We feel for this game it’s about finishing with both of them", we can expect Lawrence to be pulled somewhere around the 47th minute

Ah, just seen this was added to the Eng Scot thread