And to finish - Ireland

[Stom]

Both f and s have made more clean breaks and beaten more defenders than their oppos in the last two matches #justsaying- although I feel dirty for pointing that out; it has to be said that Faz has been ok the last two games as a player (albeit poor captaincy v Wales, and we still shipped a load of pens v France). I would still like to see Faz benched, though would be unfair based on last time out. Slade has been making more breaks on the back of improved pace of play and Ford on the gainline. In truth, I was more highlighting his very poor defensive performance v France, which seems to have gone almost unremarked in the reportage.

I agree with you, tbh.

But the midfield does feel like it needs a different kind of player in there, just to add a little variation. And the one at risk is Slade...

I agree we could do with more dangerous runners in midfield. I also should have said that Faz is likely a key part of why Slade's defence was poor.

Faz made Slade bite in like he did for their try? That was all Slade...

[Banquo]

I agree with you, tbh.

But the midfield does feel like it needs a different kind of player in there, just to add a little variation. And the one at risk is Slade...

I agree we could do with more dangerous runners in midfield. I also should have said that Faz is likely a key part of why Slade's defence was poor.

Faz made Slade bite in like he did for their try? That was all Slade...

As I wasn't alongside them, I don't know what comms was going on (I tend to agree, but that was a system fault/brilliant piece of play from France....I doubt they'd practiced defending the picture that France presented) In any case, it wasn't just the one occasion, and Faz does create uncertainty and dog legs too much for me. There is something generally wrong with the backs communication in defence imo- for Duponts try, there was a three on two for France, but Slade (I think) had drifted, and Watson didn't have to step in, but he did, releasing Thomas.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

For me Slade is due a Daly style dropping for this game. Not sure he made any line breaks that were self created or that Lawrence wouldn't have also made (would possibly have been more effective with his added power), or showed his playmaking ability to any extent. And as for his defence...
Joseph is such a 'what could have been' player, but I can't see him coming back into it now. Unfortunately.
Also I'm almost certain Eddie will see Odogwu as a wing. The way England have used them popping up in field, he'd potentially be great, and although I've been a bit unimpressed with May in the last few games he's not in danger of being dropped yet. Mainly because he's brilliant aerially and in defence, where Odogwu needs work.

[Stom]

I agree we could do with more dangerous runners in midfield. I also should have said that Faz is likely a key part of why Slade's defence was poor.

Faz made Slade bite in like he did for their try? That was all Slade...

As I wasn't alongside them, I don't know what comms was going on (I tend to agree, but that was a system fault/brilliant piece of play from France....I doubt they'd practiced defending the picture that France presented) In any case, it wasn't just the one occasion, and Faz does create uncertainty and dog legs too much for me. There is something generally wrong with the backs communication in defence imo- for Duponts try, there was a three on two for France, but Slade (I think) had drifted, and Watson didn't have to step in, but he did, releasing Thomas.

Yeah, I don't think Faz really trusts anyone to do the actual job: he wants to take it all on himself. So he needs a calm, confident defender outside him, imo. Someone like...I don't know...Joseph.

Or, you know, we could go radical and drop Faz...

[Banquo]

For me Slade is due a Daly style dropping for this game. Not sure he made any line breaks that were self created or that Lawrence wouldn't have also made (would possibly have been more effective with his added power), or showed his playmaking ability to any extent. And as for his defence...
Joseph is such a 'what could have been' player, but I can't see him coming back into it now. Unfortunately.
Also I'm almost certain Eddie will see Odogwu as a wing. The way England have used them popping up in field, he'd potentially be great, and although I've been a bit unimpressed with May in the last few games he's not in danger of being dropped yet. Mainly because he's brilliant aerially and in defence, where Odogwu needs work.

He made his very own break to create Watson's try. But his defence was poor, and iirc he had an abortive attempt at a kick through. I'd have to say though that pairing him all this time with Faz, hasn't really made the best use of his strengths, and he could do nearly all that Faz does at 12, with better passing- though with less physicality (which isn't exactly perfectly applied by Faz).
Joseph has been a very good player for England- the what might have been is presumably about again not really utlising his talents in attack; he's been a world class defensive 13 though. I do think he's lost a little pace, and is a bit battered- I'd still pick him.
For me Odogwu is on the surface quite a surprising pick from Eddie, but then Eddie does have a habit of picking backs a bit randomly and discarding them.

[Banquo]

Faz made Slade bite in like he did for their try? That was all Slade...

As I wasn't alongside them, I don't know what comms was going on (I tend to agree, but that was a system fault/brilliant piece of play from France....I doubt they'd practiced defending the picture that France presented) In any case, it wasn't just the one occasion, and Faz does create uncertainty and dog legs too much for me. There is something generally wrong with the backs communication in defence imo- for Duponts try, there was a three on two for France, but Slade (I think) had drifted, and Watson didn't have to step in, but he did, releasing Thomas.

Yeah, I don't think Faz really trusts anyone to do the actual job: he wants to take it all on himself. So he needs a calm, confident defender outside him, imo. Someone like...I don't know...Joseph.

Or, you know, we could go radical and drop Faz...

Unfortunately, Saturday was probably one of his best games. But imo that's relative.

[Stom]

As I wasn't alongside them, I don't know what comms was going on (I tend to agree, but that was a system fault/brilliant piece of play from France....I doubt they'd practiced defending the picture that France presented) In any case, it wasn't just the one occasion, and Faz does create uncertainty and dog legs too much for me. There is something generally wrong with the backs communication in defence imo- for Duponts try, there was a three on two for France, but Slade (I think) had drifted, and Watson didn't have to step in, but he did, releasing Thomas.

Yeah, I don't think Faz really trusts anyone to do the actual job: he wants to take it all on himself. So he needs a calm, confident defender outside him, imo. Someone like...I don't know...Joseph.

Or, you know, we could go radical and drop Faz...

Unfortunately, Saturday was probably one of his best games. But imo that's relative.

I've said for a while that I actually feel Ford and Farrell may be our best combination at 10/12.

[Banquo]

Yeah, I don't think Faz really trusts anyone to do the actual job: he wants to take it all on himself. So he needs a calm, confident defender outside him, imo. Someone like...I don't know...Joseph.

Or, you know, we could go radical and drop Faz...

Unfortunately, Saturday was probably one of his best games. But imo that's relative.

I've said for a while that I actually feel Ford and Farrell may be our best combination at 10/12.

I've said for a while that it shouldn't be. I was just making the point that Faz wasn't terrible. Ford would be so much better served with a true runner at 12.

[Mr Mwenda]

Slade reminds me of 12trees. I hope he pushes on instead of failing to put it all together.

[Raggs]

Faz's last 2 games have been in his top 5 performances for me. There was one last season or so, when he was also running a decent amount with the ball and it had a great positive effect, that was another top 5 easy.

The only reason I'm not saying those 3 were his top 3, is because I'm not convinced my memory rightfully allows me to.

[FKAS]

Unfortunately, Saturday was probably one of his best games. But imo that's relative.

I've said for a while that I actually feel Ford and Farrell may be our best combination at 10/12.

I've said for a while that it shouldn't be. I was just making the point that Faz wasn't terrible. Ford would be so much better served with a true runner at 12.

The England midfield would actually work if one of the two centres were replaced by a running centre who could hold the defensive line and provide some balance. Yes I know I sound like a broken record on that point.

We've seen Ford/Farrell and then either Joseph or Manu work very well England and we've seen Farrell/Manu/Slade work albeit not as well for England. I'd have liked to see a Ford/Manu/Slade backline actually but Eddie is very precious about keeping Farrell in there. I'm hoping Lawrence's inclusion Vs France is an indication his fitness is up to Eddie's standards and he's going to be given more of a chance this weekend with Ford at 10 to direct him into some half gaps.

[Mikey Brown]

Not sure how Slade cops it on lack of penetration grounds when he's been making breaks the last couple of games. I'd think about dropping him on defensive grounds though.

I think he's saying FFS doesn't offer penetration and Farrell is undroppable, so you've gotta ditch Slade. I agree with this sentiment.

I also think Slade is a great bench option as he can effectively cover 12, 13, 15. I'd then ditch Daly for Coka when fit and firing, or alternatively another powerful back of some description, if we can find one.

I'd be willing to bring Daly back, though, just feel like it'd be nice to have that power impact off the bench.

Both f and s have made more clean breaks and beaten more defenders than their oppos in the last two matches #justsaying- although I feel dirty for pointing that out; it has to be said that Faz has been ok the last two games as a player (albeit poor captaincy v Wales, and we still shipped a load of pens v France). I would still like to see Faz benched, though would be unfair based on last time out. Slade has been making more breaks on the back of improved pace of play and Ford on the gainline. In truth, I was more highlighting his very poor defensive performance v France, which seems to have gone almost unremarked in the reportage.

I didn’t absorb much of what was going on in the defensive patterns. Was it regularly Slade out of position or his tackling or what? I remember him shooting in on that fantastic French set-piece try but it feels like that was so well executed one of them would have scored anyhow.

Agreed on Joseph. Class player but looks to be done in Eddie’s view. Doesn’t bring that ‘power’ that we’re all seemingly after to accompany a Farrell/Slade type, but even when not at his line breaking best in attack he’s a fantastic defender as you say.

Have we any idea what Lawrence’s defence looks like in comparison yet?

[Puja]

Ringrose and Ryan out: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56407826

On the one hand, it's good because it'll make our job a hell of a lot easier and I wouldn't mind a confidence boosting win for this group of players. On the other, I want to see this new approach tested more.

Anyone not in favour of the same XV from last week? I'd drop Slade for Lawrence on the basis that FFS just doesn't offer enough penetration, but other than that, I think same again.

Puja

Not sure how Slade cops it on lack of penetration grounds when he's been making breaks the last couple of games. I'd think about dropping him on defensive grounds though.

FFS doesn't offer a runner and, yes Slade's been putting in a solid effort, but there's too many occasions where it just goes sideways. Quite apart from the fact that Slade can't play 12 and all of our runners are 13s, Farrell has actually been a good inside centre of late and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

Plus, Slade's defence was appalling against France - not just the missed tackles, but the awful misread for Penaud's try which gave them it for free.

Puja

[Banquo]

I've said for a while that I actually feel Ford and Farrell may be our best combination at 10/12.

I've said for a while that it shouldn't be. I was just making the point that Faz wasn't terrible. Ford would be so much better served with a true runner at 12.

The England midfield would actually work if one of the two centres were replaced by a running centre who could hold the defensive line and provide some balance. Yes I know I sound like a broken record on that point.

We've seen Ford/Farrell and then either Joseph or Manu work very well England and we've seen Farrell/Manu/Slade work albeit not as well for England. I'd have liked to see a Ford/Manu/Slade backline actually but Eddie is very precious about keeping Farrell in there. I'm hoping Lawrence's inclusion Vs France is an indication his fitness is up to Eddie's standards and he's going to be given more of a chance this weekend with Ford at 10 to direct him into some half gaps.

Mate, I've been saying the same since I was about 10, and actually both centres need to be dangerous runners imo. Some are far too hung up on second playmaker at 12.

[Banquo]

Faz's last 2 games have been in his top 5 performances for me. There was one last season or so, when he was also running a decent amount with the ball and it had a great positive effect, that was another top 5 easy.

The only reason I'm not saying those 3 were his top 3, is because I'm not convinced my memory rightfully allows me to.

I said the same, but that's only by the standard he can offer. That's to say, a pedestrian 12 who has also hit some form off the tee.

[Banquo]

Slade reminds me of 12trees. I hope he pushes on instead of failing to put it all together.

Harsh, 12T is a brainfart waiting to happen. Slade is trying too hard because of what's about him imo.

[Banquo]

Ringrose and Ryan out: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56407826

On the one hand, it's good because it'll make our job a hell of a lot easier and I wouldn't mind a confidence boosting win for this group of players. On the other, I want to see this new approach tested more.

Anyone not in favour of the same XV from last week? I'd drop Slade for Lawrence on the basis that FFS just doesn't offer enough penetration, but other than that, I think same again.

Puja

Not sure how Slade cops it on lack of penetration grounds when he's been making breaks the last couple of games. I'd think about dropping him on defensive grounds though.

FFS doesn't offer a runner and, yes Slade's been putting in a solid effort, but there's too many occasions where it just goes sideways. Quite apart from the fact that Slade can't play 12 and all of our runners are 13s, Farrell has actually been a good inside centre of late and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

Plus, Slade's defence was appalling against France - not just the missed tackles, but the awful misread for Penaud's try which gave them it for free.

Puja

So what bit of 'I'd drop him on defensive grounds' didn't you pick up? Which was really the point.
(whilst FFS doesn't offer a runner, other than Ford and Slade (:)) both Faz and Slade were more effective in attack than either pairing they faced in terms of breaks. Not that I'd keep them, but its worth pointing out I'd say; this was on the back of quick ball and Ford playing on the tackle line).

[Banquo]

Also, Stander announces his retirement at end of season. Quite young, but fair enough.

[Raggs]

Faz's last 2 games have been in his top 5 performances for me. There was one last season or so, when he was also running a decent amount with the ball and it had a great positive effect, that was another top 5 easy.

The only reason I'm not saying those 3 were his top 3, is because I'm not convinced my memory rightfully allows me to.

I said the same, but that's only by the standard he can offer. That's to say, a pedestrian 12 who has also hit some form off the tee.

I don't need every player to be able to beat their opposite man, but I do need them to be able to at least commit them, which Farrell has started to do.

I think Farrell has better handling than most 12s, I think he probably has better vision than many too, and whilst his brain doesn't work well enough to be an international 10 in my mind, I could easily believe it's above the level of most 12s. His boot is also better than many other 12s (not talking about the tee).

Italy is an extreme example, but watch what happens when Garbisi goes on a run and gets tackled. The next phase or two are absolute dogshit in terms of speed and what happens. Garbisi seems to call so much of what's happening, as soon as he's not available it all goes wrong. I suspect other sides reflect that too, but to a lesser degree as their systems can take over. Ford is much better than Farrell, but if Ford's made a darting run, I have confidence enough that Farrell isn't going to ruin the following phase and any advantage Ford has built (assuming he doesn't pointlessly kick it, which has also become rarer).

I also love Farrell's workrate. The LRZ chase where he beats May is a perfect example of this, and it's really not an outlier. Farrell goes absolutely balls to the wall all out, saving nothing, after 77 minutes of game time. He's virtually matching May. I don't believe Farrell is as fast as May, but I do believe he's more determined. That counts for a lot, especially from a captain. 36 is the same, and one of the reasons I liked him. It's one of those bits of the games that coaches will love, but spectators won't always notice.

While Farrell continues to carry the ball, even if he struggles to beat defenders with any regularity, he's fixing them, and he has the skills to exploit that. If he's not doing that, then even if we play fast, the defence knows they can happily drift off him and basically ignore him in attack, and then even though he can distribute, it becomes almost pointless because the defence is just moving with the passes.

[Raggs]

Slade reported to be struggling with a leg injury....

[Puja]

Not sure how Slade cops it on lack of penetration grounds when he's been making breaks the last couple of games. I'd think about dropping him on defensive grounds though.

FFS doesn't offer a runner and, yes Slade's been putting in a solid effort, but there's too many occasions where it just goes sideways. Quite apart from the fact that Slade can't play 12 and all of our runners are 13s, Farrell has actually been a good inside centre of late and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

Plus, Slade's defence was appalling against France - not just the missed tackles, but the awful misread for Penaud's try which gave them it for free.

Puja

So what bit of 'I'd drop him on defensive grounds' didn't you pick up? Which was really the point.
(whilst FFS doesn't offer a runner, other than Ford and Slade (:)) both Faz and Slade were more effective in attack than either pairing they faced in terms of breaks. Not that I'd keep them, but its worth pointing out I'd say; this was on the back of quick ball and Ford playing on the tackle line).

I wasn't clear - my second paragraph was meant to be agreeing with you about the defensive grounds.

Puja

[Banquo]

Faz's last 2 games have been in his top 5 performances for me. There was one last season or so, when he was also running a decent amount with the ball and it had a great positive effect, that was another top 5 easy.

The only reason I'm not saying those 3 were his top 3, is because I'm not convinced my memory rightfully allows me to.

I said the same, but that's only by the standard he can offer. That's to say, a pedestrian 12 who has also hit some form off the tee.

I don't need every player to be able to beat their opposite man, but I do need them to be able to at least commit them, which Farrell has started to do.

I think Farrell has better handling than most 12s, I think he probably has better vision than many too, and whilst his brain doesn't work well enough to be an international 10 in my mind, I could easily believe it's above the level of most 12s. His boot is also better than many other 12s (not talking about the tee).

Italy is an extreme example, but watch what happens when Garbisi goes on a run and gets tackled. The next phase or two are absolute dogshit in terms of speed and what happens. Garbisi seems to call so much of what's happening, as soon as he's not available it all goes wrong. I suspect other sides reflect that too, but to a lesser degree as their systems can take over. Ford is much better than Farrell, but if Ford's made a darting run, I have confidence enough that Farrell isn't going to ruin the following phase and any advantage Ford has built (assuming he doesn't pointlessly kick it, which has also become rarer).

I also love Farrell's workrate. The LRZ chase where he beats May is a perfect example of this, and it's really not an outlier. Farrell goes absolutely balls to the wall all out, saving nothing, after 77 minutes of game time. He's virtually matching May. I don't believe Farrell is as fast as May, but I do believe he's more determined. That counts for a lot, especially from a captain. 36 is the same, and one of the reasons I liked him. It's one of those bits of the games that coaches will love, but spectators won't always notice.

While Farrell continues to carry the ball, even if he struggles to beat defenders with any regularity, he's fixing them, and he has the skills to exploit that. If he's not doing that, then even if we play fast, the defence knows they can happily drift off him and basically ignore him in attack, and then even though he can distribute, it becomes almost pointless because the defence is just moving with the passes.

I've had this conversation so many times. I know what he brings to the table and why coaches love him. I know what he doesn't bring to the table, and that's why I wouldn't pick him. I entirely diverge from your view of him as a 12 v 10; I think he's a better 10 than 12. I think his lack of genuine threat and very weak handling left to right leave him short of top class in either position, and he lacks vision- he can scan a field well back in the pocket at club level; he has also has terrible defensive moments (one of my big problems with him at 12). You are right that he tries to captain by example, but thats not just about 'putting yourself about', which is his natural response in adversity. I recognise I am swimming against the elite coaching majority here as well. I also acknowledge he has performed to a good international standard at 12 the last couple of games in attack- no coincidence that we have been trying to play a lot quicker in attack and generate quick ball.

[Banquo]

FFS doesn't offer a runner and, yes Slade's been putting in a solid effort, but there's too many occasions where it just goes sideways. Quite apart from the fact that Slade can't play 12 and all of our runners are 13s, Farrell has actually been a good inside centre of late and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

Plus, Slade's defence was appalling against France - not just the missed tackles, but the awful misread for Penaud's try which gave them it for free.

Puja

So what bit of 'I'd drop him on defensive grounds' didn't you pick up? Which was really the point.
(whilst FFS doesn't offer a runner, other than Ford and Slade (:)) both Faz and Slade were more effective in attack than either pairing they faced in terms of breaks. Not that I'd keep them, but its worth pointing out I'd say; this was on the back of quick ball and Ford playing on the tackle line).

I wasn't clear - my second paragraph was meant to be agreeing with you about the defensive grounds.

Puja

Fair dinkum.

[Mikey Brown]

Faz's last 2 games have been in his top 5 performances for me. There was one last season or so, when he was also running a decent amount with the ball and it had a great positive effect, that was another top 5 easy.

The only reason I'm not saying those 3 were his top 3, is because I'm not convinced my memory rightfully allows me to.

I said the same, but that's only by the standard he can offer. That's to say, a pedestrian 12 who has also hit some form off the tee.

I don't need every player to be able to beat their opposite man, but I do need them to be able to at least commit them, which Farrell has started to do.

I think Farrell has better handling than most 12s, I think he probably has better vision than many too, and whilst his brain doesn't work well enough to be an international 10 in my mind, I could easily believe it's above the level of most 12s. His boot is also better than many other 12s (not talking about the tee).

Italy is an extreme example, but watch what happens when Garbisi goes on a run and gets tackled. The next phase or two are absolute dogshit in terms of speed and what happens. Garbisi seems to call so much of what's happening, as soon as he's not available it all goes wrong. I suspect other sides reflect that too, but to a lesser degree as their systems can take over. Ford is much better than Farrell, but if Ford's made a darting run, I have confidence enough that Farrell isn't going to ruin the following phase and any advantage Ford has built (assuming he doesn't pointlessly kick it, which has also become rarer).

I also love Farrell's workrate. The LRZ chase where he beats May is a perfect example of this, and it's really not an outlier. Farrell goes absolutely balls to the wall all out, saving nothing, after 77 minutes of game time. He's virtually matching May. I don't believe Farrell is as fast as May, but I do believe he's more determined. That counts for a lot, especially from a captain. 36 is the same, and one of the reasons I liked him. It's one of those bits of the games that coaches will love, but spectators won't always notice.

While Farrell continues to carry the ball, even if he struggles to beat defenders with any regularity, he's fixing them, and he has the skills to exploit that. If he's not doing that, then even if we play fast, the defence knows they can happily drift off him and basically ignore him in attack, and then even though he can distribute, it becomes almost pointless because the defence is just moving with the passes.

He clearly learnt a lot from the masterclass Redpath gave him in round 1.

[Spiffy]

Latest Ireland news - No.8 CJ Stander will retire at the end of the season and head back to SA. His Irish mates will be looking to give him a good sendoff against England in his last international game. A great backrower who has always given 100% and hardly ever had a poor game.