(Hypothetical) Tour Squad

[Raggs]

I know a pair of genetically identical twins, and they are very different people. Ben looks like the more skillful pacy player, Tom looks the more physical. I have no doubt that they push each other hard, but mentally (and that's where the difference is), there's obviously a gap between them.

Ben is more how Jngf would like our 7 to be i suspect, Tom is more fitting with the realities of international backrow play I feel. I mostly noticed it when doing ruck marks here and there. Ben just doesn't dominate in quite the same way. He's a fantastic player, and I'd not be upset to have him join Wasps in the slightest, but just don't think he's there for international. The English Tipuric (but not as good I feel).

[Puja]

I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

I had literally forgotten about him when it came to this tour. I'm with you on your bafflement at him being ignored.

Puja

[Banquo]

I know a pair of genetically identical twins, and they are very different people. Ben looks like the more skillful pacy player, Tom looks the more physical. I have no doubt that they push each other hard, but mentally (and that's where the difference is), there's obviously a gap between them.

Ben is more how Jngf would like our 7 to be i suspect, Tom is more fitting with the realities of international backrow play I feel. I mostly noticed it when doing ruck marks here and there. Ben just doesn't dominate in quite the same way. He's a fantastic player, and I'd not be upset to have him join Wasps in the slightest, but just don't think he's there for international. The English Tipuric (but not as good I feel).

Tom has definitely been piling on the muscle though.

[Raggs]

I know a pair of genetically identical twins, and they are very different people. Ben looks like the more skillful pacy player, Tom looks the more physical. I have no doubt that they push each other hard, but mentally (and that's where the difference is), there's obviously a gap between them.

Ben is more how Jngf would like our 7 to be i suspect, Tom is more fitting with the realities of international backrow play I feel. I mostly noticed it when doing ruck marks here and there. Ben just doesn't dominate in quite the same way. He's a fantastic player, and I'd not be upset to have him join Wasps in the slightest, but just don't think he's there for international. The English Tipuric (but not as good I feel).

Tom has definitely been piling on the muscle though.

Absolutely. He needed to. Against south Africa he was right on the edge, now he's right at the top. Brilliant attitude combined with good solid build.

[Mellsblue]

Interesting that Jones originally preferred Ben.... if it weren’t for a back spasm.....
Tom C is world class but under a different HC Ben C could easily get a chance.

[Scrumhead]

I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

I had literally forgotten about him when it came to this tour. I'm with you on your bafflement at him being ignored.

Puja

It’s not that baffling when he’s been injured for most of this season.

Prior to that, I think Eddie has preferred the versatility of Ludlam or the pace/dynamism of Earl which is fair enough. Both are very good players.

[Banquo]

I know a pair of genetically identical twins, and they are very different people. Ben looks like the more skillful pacy player, Tom looks the more physical. I have no doubt that they push each other hard, but mentally (and that's where the difference is), there's obviously a gap between them.

Ben is more how Jngf would like our 7 to be i suspect, Tom is more fitting with the realities of international backrow play I feel. I mostly noticed it when doing ruck marks here and there. Ben just doesn't dominate in quite the same way. He's a fantastic player, and I'd not be upset to have him join Wasps in the slightest, but just don't think he's there for international. The English Tipuric (but not as good I feel).

Tom has definitely been piling on the muscle though.

Absolutely. He needed to. Against south Africa he was right on the edge, now he's right at the top. Brilliant attitude combined with good solid build.

Though poor today I thought- by his standards anyway

[Raggs]

I thought he went well.

[Banquo]

I thought he went well.

Thought he was clumsy, and marginally at fault for the first try- and turned over 4 times...and two penalties (though don't know if that overlaps with turnovers). As I said by his standards, difficult to judge in the forwards shit show tho.

[Puja]

I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

I had literally forgotten about him when it came to this tour. I'm with you on your bafflement at him being ignored.

Puja

It’s not that baffling when he’s been injured for most of this season.

Prior to that, I think Eddie has preferred the versatility of Ludlam or the pace/dynamism of Earl which is fair enough. Both are very good players.

It's baffling in total. The two of them were very, very similar quality before that England tour - Tom was maybe a bit more physical and Ben a bit better at poaching, but only dedicated observers could have picked them apart. Ben was even the one picked first for England and Tom only got his chance because Ben was injured. Then, after that tour, absolutely no interest in Ben whatsoever.

There's no doubt that Tom is the superior player now, but it just feels like a colossal missed opportunity to not have developed Ben at the same time.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

To be fair, I don’t disagree. I thought you were talking about now.

[jngf]

Been thinking about the will they won't they (I'm sure they will, in some form) tour.
Who do we want to see in the squad?
Who do we think Gatland will not take?

I really hope Ford goes with the Lions, because a) he deserves it as the best B&I fly half and b) I'd really like a look at Smith, Simmonds and, to a lesser extent Umaga.
I'd also really like Billy V to go. He doesn't deserve it, but I think both Simmonds and Dombrandt need a bit of time with Eddie to see how they can fit in.
I'm pretty convinced Gatland will take Billy and not Ford.

Second row will be interesting as apart from Itoje, not sure anyone will go. Lawes is a Gat favourite, and Launchbury is/was in great form. It'll be interesting whoever goes or not as post-Kruis there's a bit of a gap for backup lock. Do we think Martin's future is there? Is Ewels as good as his performance against France? Do we give up on Hill? Isiekwe? Ribbans?

I think both George and Cowan-Dickie will be with the Lions. Will Dunn get more than 1 minute? Who else is there? Will Barbeary be thrown into the front row (surely not!)? Props I think are pretty set with Genge/Obano and Stuart/West/Williams but where will Marler be?

I reckon Youngs would have gone whether or not for his recent purple patch. Will Robson just step in? Or will we have a look at Randall and Mitchell?

I can't imagine Slade going with the Lions, but who knows? If he does surely Lawrence gets some time? I cam definitely see Umaga getting some time at 12 either way.

Back three there's loads of options with or without Daly (as with Billy I hope Daly is picked despite not really deserving it). Malins is surely odds on to solidify his position at 15 but can we also have a look at Steward & Parton? I reckon Odogwu will be seen as a winger exclusively. Who else? Thorley? Cokanisiga? Hassell-Collins? McConnochie?

I would question that Billy merits Lions selection.For me Falatau’s an altogether better no.8 with Billy’s only point of difference being the battering ram stuff (and he’s not as penetrative in this facet nowadays). I would take Stander as a backup 6 cum 8 and Sam Simmonds as a 6,7,8 depending on balance (and noting that the two locks and small dynamic 8 is a pattern the boks have used themselves, certainly at provisional level e.g. Brosseow played at 8 for Cheetars on last Lions tour to SA)

[Digby]

I would question that Billy merits Lions selection.For me Falatau’s an altogether better no.8 with Billy’s only point of difference being the battering ram stuff (and he’s not as penetrative in this facet nowadays). I would take Stander as a backup 6 cum 8 and Sam Simmonds as a 6,7,8 depending on balance (and noting that the two locks and small dynamic 8 is a pattern the boks have used themselves, certainly at provisional level e.g. Brosseow played at 8 for Cheetars on last Lions tour to SA)

So think about doing something a minor side in SA did 12 years ago a little bit?

[FKAS]

Jack Conan the Irish 8 is a quality option now he's back for again. Played well Vs England at the weekend. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tour. He can carry hard and jumps in the lineout. At 6ft 4 he could be the third jumper that then allows two more mobile 7s is the tactics go that way. Having said that both Tipuric and Curry can jump in the lineout it's only Watson that isn't an option for that though I'd start Watson if it was my choice.

[Peej]

I think Watson is quality. If it wasn't Gatland, I imagine Tipuric would be nailed on to start 7 though.

[Timbo]

Jack Conan the Irish 8 is a quality option now he's back for again. Played well Vs England at the weekend. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tour. He can carry hard and jumps in the lineout. At 6ft 4 he could be the third jumper that then allows two more mobile 7s is the tactics go that way. Having said that both Tipuric and Curry can jump in the lineout it's only Watson that isn't an option for that though I'd start Watson if it was my choice.

That was probably Conan’s best game for 3 years and literally his one and only really top drawer international performance. He’s a very decent player, but making a Lions tour basically off the back of 1 game would be incredibly fortunate.

[FKAS]

Timbo, Conan was really good in 2019 but injury hampered and eventually took him out of the world cup and then ruined 2020 for him. Now he's back fit and in form he's one to watch out for. He's probably a bit of a dark horse at this point but wouldn't be the first time we've seen someone go as a squad player and then push their way into the test team.

Peej, I'd take Watson over Tipuric for a tour in SA every day of the week. Watson is a pinball who regularly makes yards he has absolutely no right to. That will be useful against the massive Bok pack. Over the ball Watson just edges Tipuric as well.

[jngf]

I would question that Billy merits Lions selection.For me Falatau’s an altogether better no.8 with Billy’s only point of difference being the battering ram stuff (and he’s not as penetrative in this facet nowadays). I would take Stander as a backup 6 cum 8 and Sam Simmonds as a 6,7,8 depending on balance (and noting that the two locks and small dynamic 8 is a pattern the boks have used themselves, certainly at provisional level e.g. Brosseow played at 8 for Cheetars on last Lions tour to SA)

So think about doing something a minor side in SA did 12 years ago a little bit?

Think you’re overlooking Ellis, Greyling and Bedford - arguably the best SA loose forward trio of all time

[Digby]

I would question that Billy merits Lions selection.For me Falatau’s an altogether better no.8 with Billy’s only point of difference being the battering ram stuff (and he’s not as penetrative in this facet nowadays). I would take Stander as a backup 6 cum 8 and Sam Simmonds as a 6,7,8 depending on balance (and noting that the two locks and small dynamic 8 is a pattern the boks have used themselves, certainly at provisional level e.g. Brosseow played at 8 for Cheetars on last Lions tour to SA)

So think about doing something a minor side in SA did 12 years ago a little bit?

Think you’re overlooking Ellis, Greyling and Bedford - arguably the best SA loose forward trio of all time

Overlooking in the sense I've no idea about them sure. Which might suggest they're from an era that doesn't in all ways translate to the present reality

[Spiffy]

Jack Conan the Irish 8 is a quality option now he's back for again. Played well Vs England at the weekend. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tour. He can carry hard and jumps in the lineout. At 6ft 4 he could be the third jumper that then allows two more mobile 7s is the tactics go that way. Having said that both Tipuric and Curry can jump in the lineout it's only Watson that isn't an option for that though I'd start Watson if it was my choice.

That was probably Conan’s best game for 3 years and literally his one and only really top drawer international performance. He’s a very decent player, but making a Lions tour basically off the back of 1 game would be incredibly fortunate.

Conan is not that highly rated in Ireland. With players like Doris, Max Deegan, Leavy, Connors all fit he would be hard pushed to gain a starting slot with Leinster, never mind Ireland. But fair play, he did have a good game against England.

The next big name in the Irish back row roster is Gavin Coombes - a massive lad of around 6'6" who can play 6, 8 or even lock. Has power, hands and rugby intelligence, has been playing his socks off all season and scoring a lot of tries for Munster. He will play for Ireland sooner than later. Can't wait to see a back row of Coombes/Doris/Leavy. Another to watch, Leinster's Scott Penny, a compact powerhouse of a flanker in the Hamish Watson mode who could edge out VDF before too long. Watch for those names - you'll see them soon.

[FKAS]

Jack Conan the Irish 8 is a quality option now he's back for again. Played well Vs England at the weekend. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tour. He can carry hard and jumps in the lineout. At 6ft 4 he could be the third jumper that then allows two more mobile 7s is the tactics go that way. Having said that both Tipuric and Curry can jump in the lineout it's only Watson that isn't an option for that though I'd start Watson if it was my choice.

That was probably Conan’s best game for 3 years and literally his one and only really top drawer international performance. He’s a very decent player, but making a Lions tour basically off the back of 1 game would be incredibly fortunate.

Conan is not that highly rated in Ireland. With players like Doris, Max Deegan, Leavy, Connors all fit he would be hard pushed to gain a starting slot with Leinster, never mind Ireland. But fair play, he did have a good game against England.

The next big name in the Irish back row roster is Gavin Coombes - a massive lad of around 6'6" who can play 6, 8 or even lock. Has power, hands and rugby intelligence, has been playing his socks off all season and scoring a lot of tries for Munster. He will play for Ireland sooner than later. Can't wait to see a back row of Coombes/Doris/Leavy. Another to watch, Leinster's Scott Penny, a compact powerhouse of a flanker in the Hamish Watson mode who could edge out VDF before too long. Watch for those names - you'll see them soon.

Yeah the Irish backrow stocks and production line is excellent. Leinster alone have enough talent for at least one possibly two international backrows. Doris does look like he'll be a great 8 for Ireland going forwards as well. The pacey lad who came off the bench Vs Scotland and got the crucial charge down looked like he could be a very handy Tom Croft style blindside for Ireland, just in case they needed an even wider range of options than the already envy inducing selection they have. Outside of hooker the Irish pack is pretty damn good on paper, Farrell just hasn't always got the best of them but worryingly that seems to be changing.

[Banquo]

So think about doing something a minor side in SA did 12 years ago a little bit?

Think you’re overlooking Ellis, Greyling and Bedford - arguably the best SA loose forward trio of all time

Overlooking in the sense I've no idea about them sure. Which might suggest they're from an era that doesn't in all ways translate to the present reality

I remember them, and of their time they were excellent. But as you say pretty irrelevent to any debate today, their peak was about 50 years ago.

[Spiffy]

Think you’re overlooking Ellis, Greyling and Bedford - arguably the best SA loose forward trio of all time

Overlooking in the sense I've no idea about them sure. Which might suggest they're from an era that doesn't in all ways translate to the present reality

I remember them, and of their time they were excellent. But as you say pretty irrelevent to any debate today, their peak was about 50 years ago.

Ellis and Greyling played fast and loose like a pair of 7s - tacklers, scavengers and linkmen.
Bedford was a cerebral footballing 8.
All three were small and light by today's standards and backrow play has changed significantly.
Ellis one of the classic Bok flankers.

[Which Tyler]

Its USA, Canada and Scotland in June. The tour should be all about development.
Irrespective of who goes on the Jamboree, we should looking to leave most of the current squad at home, along with a few others who are injured.
Make Ewels captain, include Malins, Odogwu, Marchant, Lawrence, Obano, Martin, Ribbans and Earl from the current 6Ns squad. Add in Smith, J Simmonds, Dombrandt, Randall, Dunn, Hill, Barbeary, Heyes, Thorley plus a smattering of form youngsters.

I kinda agree - it should be about development. But it's always preferable to bring new players in alongside the established where possible - and the Lions will play havoc with our options regardless.
I'd mostly look at starting our usual bench and 3rd choice players; with some new up-and-comers sprinkled in for experience and excitement, with the odd starter to lead the way.


If available, then I'd go with:

LHP: Genge, Obano, West
HK: LCD, Dunn, Barbeary
THP: Stuart, Heyes, Street
LK: Ewels, JHill, Martin, Ribbans
BR: 1 of Ben/Sam/Billy, Earl, Willis, THill, Dombrandt
18
SH: Spencer/Robson, Randall, Mitchell
FH: Ford, Simmonds
IC: Devoto, POC
OC: Slade, Lawrence
WG: Odogwu, Cokanasiga (form allowing), Thorley
FB: Malins, Steward, DeGlanville
15

[Digby]

I think the games will be very little about development, because it's hard to develop against inherently inferior sides. It's more about the time in camp, which a lot of people sound like they're sick and tired of.

Also worth keeping in mind the Lions tour might not happen, and if the jamboree does still go ahead it's likely to be a paired back tour with less players going. They might only play 5-6 games out of 1-2 stadia. Still, given how fed up people were being stuck in hotel rooms we might want to consider mental freshness and try to be sure it's beneficial for people to go