RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: Discipline was very poor v Ireland too, and I don't actually think that was all pressure induced.

The pens came once the scrum failed, and the breakdown and midfield collisions were being lost. So at least it wasn't the setter of the scene as it was against Scotland and Wales, not that it was close to adequate,


If you want though to see a side really lose the plot then yesterday's classic between Romania and Spain is worth a gander. Obviously p/d will just adore the Romania kit, but beyond that Spain came into the match with the memory of them losing the plot against Belgium costing them the WC spot to Romania, before Romania and Spain both then failed ineligible player standards advancing Russia, and I don't know if that had emotions running too high but blimey Spain well and truly lost the plot, and it could have been worse for them

Not sure I agree- the rot set in early when we had a scrum on their line, and Mako was done for an early shove- free kick. We then gave away two more cheap penalties and bingo, Ireland on the front foot. I'd say the pressure was greater than the scots game, but there were a lot of unforced penalties still. We did the same at the start of the second half; on the front foot in their 22.....then 3 penalties later, they kick a goal--- the first penalty was lineout crossing, utterly dim and unneeded.

But bloody saintly compared to Spain, so there's that.

I wonder how well Marler gets on with Jones and whether a different camp environment would mean that he'd make himself available. I think his absence is a massive loss and I'd always have started him ahead of Mako.

Oakboy wrote:I wonder how well Marler gets on with Jones and whether a different camp environment would mean that he'd make himself available. I think his absence is a massive loss and I'd always have started him ahead of Mako.

I think he's just welcomed his fourth baby into the world or is about to. He's got plenty on at home and if that's where he needs to be fair play to him. Genge did an interview where he said he'd found the bubble really tough because he's got a little baby at home. Marler wouldn't have been in a good place so he wisely took himself out of the situation.

I've always got the impression that Eddie and Marler get on well.

In the summer I hope we give more game time to Obano and cap West. Increase the depth a loosehead because Marler and Mako are both into their 30s be good to get a scrap going for their long term replacements. Similarly Sinckler looked off the boil Vs Ireland and Eddie doesn't give Stuart much game time. Be good to get some game time into Heyes and A N Other to put some pressure on them. Start making it a case of we have options in and out of the squad if you aren't staking a claim you won't get picked. At the minute the number of players up to speed with what Eddie wants is too few.

FKAS wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I wonder how well Marler gets on with Jones and whether a different camp environment would mean that he'd make himself available. I think his absence is a massive loss and I'd always have started him ahead of Mako.

I think he's just welcomed his fourth baby into the world or is about to. He's got plenty on at home and if that's where he needs to be fair play to him. Genge did an interview where he said he'd found the bubble really tough because he's got a little baby at home. Marler wouldn't have been in a good place so he wisely took himself out of the situation.

I've always got the impression that Eddie and Marler get on well.

In the summer I hope we give more game time to Obano and cap West. Increase the depth a loosehead because Marler and Mako are both into their 30s be good to get a scrap going for their long term replacements. Similarly Sinckler looked off the boil Vs Ireland and Eddie doesn't give Stuart much game time. Be good to get some game time into Heyes and A N Other to put some pressure on them. Start making it a case of we have options in and out of the squad if you aren't staking a claim you won't get picked. At the minute the number of players up to speed with what Eddie wants is too few.

I agree with all that. Traditionally, props in their early 30s have been regarded as at their peak. Does that still apply?

I know sweet FA about scrummaging but it seems to me that in scrum penalty-conceding alone, at the top international level, selection demands scrummaging skill/solidity to an ultimate degree so that other considerations (carrying, handling etc.) are secondary. I think Marler sets the benchmark. Getting younger pretenders up to and past his level is some task, I'd guess.

Of the LH options currently available to Eng Mako is confortably the least capable scrummager. His strengths lie elsewhere obv, his scrummaging has improved to the point where it's reached the heady heights of meh. It isn't often a problem but when he's up against a good TH then it becomes a problem that can cause difficulty for the team sometimes. I'd always start Marler in these situations but that hasn't been possible this 6N.

Oakboy wrote:I wonder how well Marler gets on with Jones and whether a different camp environment would mean that he'd make himself available. I think his absence is a massive loss and I'd always have started him ahead of Mako.

I'm sure a different environment would have made things different. But there's not a lot Jones can do about Covid and putting big extra restrictions on the players in how they have to live in the (sort of) bubble.

I probably wouldn't start Marler ahead of Mako, because Mako offers so much more. Unless the power output drops off from the locks so much with Kruis/Launch that reality has to step in, and I don't know what see as regards LCD Vs George in this either

Are Launch/Kruis weaker in that area?

FKAS wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I wonder how well Marler gets on with Jones and whether a different camp environment would mean that he'd make himself available. I think his absence is a massive loss and I'd always have started him ahead of Mako.

I think he's just welcomed his fourth baby into the world or is about to. He's got plenty on at home and if that's where he needs to be fair play to him. Genge did an interview where he said he'd found the bubble really tough because he's got a little baby at home. Marler wouldn't have been in a good place so he wisely took himself out of the situation.

I've always got the impression that Eddie and Marler get on well.

In the summer I hope we give more game time to Obano and cap West. Increase the depth a loosehead because Marler and Mako are both into their 30s be good to get a scrap going for their long term replacements. Similarly Sinckler looked off the boil Vs Ireland and Eddie doesn't give Stuart much game time. Be good to get some game time into Heyes and A N Other to put some pressure on them. Start making it a case of we have options in and out of the squad if you aren't staking a claim you won't get picked. At the minute the number of players up to speed with what Eddie wants is too few.

Yep. Genge’s incident with Sexton is reason alone to take a better look at Obano. West has been a bit of a slow burner but IIRC, he was in the same U20 team as Stuart, Willis, Randall etc. He’s looked good now he’s getting some regular involvement.

I also like the look of Rodd at Sale.

Scrumhead wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I wonder how well Marler gets on with Jones and whether a different camp environment would mean that he'd make himself available. I think his absence is a massive loss and I'd always have started him ahead of Mako.

I think he's just welcomed his fourth baby into the world or is about to. He's got plenty on at home and if that's where he needs to be fair play to him. Genge did an interview where he said he'd found the bubble really tough because he's got a little baby at home. Marler wouldn't have been in a good place so he wisely took himself out of the situation.

I've always got the impression that Eddie and Marler get on well.

In the summer I hope we give more game time to Obano and cap West. Increase the depth a loosehead because Marler and Mako are both into their 30s be good to get a scrap going for their long term replacements. Similarly Sinckler looked off the boil Vs Ireland and Eddie doesn't give Stuart much game time. Be good to get some game time into Heyes and A N Other to put some pressure on them. Start making it a case of we have options in and out of the squad if you aren't staking a claim you won't get picked. At the minute the number of players up to speed with what Eddie wants is too few.

Yep. Genge’s incident with Sexton is reason alone to take a better look at Obano. West has been a bit of a slow burner but IIRC, he was in the same U20 team as Stuart, Willis, Randall etc. He’s looked good now he’s getting some regular involvement.

I also like the look of Rodd at Sale.

I'd like some more angles of the Genge Vs Sexton bit. The clip starts with Sexton's hand over Genge's face and then Genge quickly seeing red. If and I stress the if Sexton is grabbing Genge's face then I'm really ok with Genge roughing him up. Genge doesn't normally lose his temper in that way, if he has lost his temper over nothing then he needs some time with the sports psychologist because you can't be doing that.

Genge's form has been so, so. As has Vunipola's. I'd want closer looks at Obano, West and Rodd is a good shout as well just to increase competition. It's unlikely Marler will back into the fold so we need to have more options to put some pressure on and make it a case of perform or we've got other options. At the minute for large parts of the squad we just don't have alternate options without going to uncapped or barely players. Got to build that depth as you say, I don't see any other way.

Think I read about Sextons hands in Genge's face starting the incident. Amusingly when Sexton complains to the ref that Genge put his elbow in his face, Genge replies straight up "Yes I did."

We needed Launch and Lawes I feel. We also needed a general smack around the earhole for discipline. Losing Underhill and Willis (perhaps) was a big blow. We have plenty of potential backrow, but there's only so many caps to go around, and when you lose players you've invested in, it's a problem.

Whilst the forwards discipline hurt us a lot, I still feel the major selection issue is in the backs. FFS doesn't work well, and Daly at fullback really doesn't help. We can kick really well with those options, but we lose the kicking battle because we're not very good at receiving kicks when they come back our way. Switching to running it back more was fairly successful I felt, especially with Billy V trucking it properly. I'd like to see more of Malins at fullback, and then Lawrence/Odogwu at 13. I don't know if Lawrence has the physical punch at international level yet, I assume from size and acceleration, Odogwu should do, but we don't know.

Did the Genge/Sexton thing happen towards the end of the game right in front of the posts? I think there was something going on with Martin where he had his scrum cap ripped off? Not sure if that was part of the same incident?

Raggs wrote:Think I read about Sextons hands in Genge's face starting the incident. Amusingly when Sexton complains to the ref that Genge put his elbow in his face, Genge replies straight up "Yes I did."

We needed Launch and Lawes I feel. We also needed a general smack around the earhole for discipline. Losing Underhill and Willis (perhaps) was a big blow. We have plenty of potential backrow, but there's only so many caps to go around, and when you lose players you've invested in, it's a problem.

Whilst the forwards discipline hurt us a lot, I still feel the major selection issue is in the backs. FFS doesn't work well, and Daly at fullback really doesn't help. We can kick really well with those options, but we lose the kicking battle because we're not very good at receiving kicks when they come back our way. Switching to running it back more was fairly successful I felt, especially with Billy V trucking it properly. I'd like to see more of Malins at fullback, and then Lawrence/Odogwu at 13. I don't know if Lawrence has the physical punch at international level yet, I assume from size and acceleration, Odogwu should do, but we don't know.

I agree that we probably selected near enough the best forwards we could, and that the backs selection is a mess and more arguable. However, the reason we lost to Scotland, Wales and Ireland were nearly all up front....the first through discipline (credit Scotland of course), the second through discipline (Wales played very well though) and the third through discipline/scrummaging poorly/physically beaten up (Ireland were excellent and totally out tought and outplayed us- Eddie should be embarrassed in comparison to his counterparts(s)). We could undoubtedly (imo) pick better backs, but they'd still be redundant if the discipline is rubbish- you only have to look at the French game to see what is possible with adequate discipline and better focus.

From the telegraph.

Undroppable

Tom Curry - 8
England’s captain in waiting? We knew of his breakdown excellence but has taken great strides in his leadership and especially his ball-carrying.

Anthony Watson - 8
Very hard to recall many mistakes. Ball did not always come his way, but when it did he seized his opportunity. Glorious to behold in full flight.

Kyle Sinckler - 7
Absence was a factor in opening-round defeat to Scotland. Now England’s go-to option as a ball-carrier, although could not find scrum dominance in latter games.

Maro Itoje - 6
If England’s discipline was their Achilles heel then Itoje was their bunion. Desire to make an impact may have backfired. Excellent against France.



Well established

Owen Farrell - 5
No question his captaincy has been found wanting. Debatable whether he would continue to be picked on performances alone.



Jonny May - 6
Fewer opportunities to shine after a stellar autumn, which will have hurt his Lions chances. Remains excellent under the high ball.

Henry Slade - 7
Hallelujah, England discovered what a weapon Slade can be if you give him the ball. If only Exeter hadn’t been doing the same thing for six years.

Work to do

Courtney Lawes - 6
England always seem to play better with him in the side but his age, 32, and, recently, fitness record count against him.

Luke Cowan-Dickie - 6
Felt like a changing of the guard when he started against France. Shuddering power in collisions but hooked at half-time against Ireland.

Mako Vunipola - 5
At his best, he can be a de facto centre with his pull-back passes. Scrummaging, however, has looked increasingly vulnerable.

Ollie Lawrence - 5
How to judge a player who barely touches the ball? More experienced players would have got themselves involved but he is taking his first steps.

George Ford - 6
Majestic against France when playing flat to the line. Watching him revert to the autumn tactics was sad to witness.

Jamie George - 5
The first of the “untouchables” to be dropped. Lineout solidity is a given but missing that extra spark he used to bring.

Charlie Ewels - 6
Brought in to shore up the lineout and relieve the burden on Itoje, he did just that. Has made strides as a ball-carrier.

Mark Wilson - 6
No one sweats more for the cause than Wilson, who was invariably the top tackler on the field. Does he need more X-factor than pure grunt?

Will Stuart - 6
Established himself as a second-choice behind Sinckler. Did not seize his opportunity to change the status quo in start against Scotland.

Ellis Genge - 5
Like Stuart, Genge did not shine starting against Scotland. Seems to have a worrying habit of attracting controversy. See latest tussle with Sexton. 5

Jonny Hill - 6
Dropping after the Wales game felt harsh, although he did give away a dumb penalty. His time should come again.

Dan Robson - 6
Will he ever get a chance as a starter? Excellent cameo against Italy, less so against Wales. Deployed as fly-half against Ireland.

Ben Earl - 6
Still waiting for his first start, which seems to suggest Jones has pigeonholed him as an impact replacement. Capable of so much more.

Max Malins - 6
A slight mixed bag on his first start against France and a shame he missed Ireland. Full-back slot is wide open.

Beno Obano - 6
Got eight minutes off the bench for his debut against Scotland and that was basically it. A prime candidate to kick on in the summer.

Harry Williams - 6
Like Obano, disappeared after the Scotland game. Part of a growing band of Exeter Chiefs whom Jones clearly does not fancy.

Jack Willis - 6
Such wretched luck. Whatever the results, his injury was the lowpoint of England’s Six Nations just as he looked like he was about to kick on.

George Martin - 6
The latest in a long line of Eddie rough diamonds. Clearly there on potential over performance, which will grate with some players.

Joe Marchant - 5
Benefit from injury to Slade to come into the 23 against Ireland. A penny for the thoughts of Paolo Odogwu.

In serious threat

Elliot Daly - 4
Needs to reinvent himself at centre or back on the wing. A gifted player whose talents are being misused at full-back. That experiment must end.

Billy Vunipola - 5
At 28, still young enough to come again, but certainly not the force of old. Improved against Wales and France but outplayed by Jack Conan on Saturday,

Ben Youngs - 5
Similarly, has blown red hot and then ice cold. Jones’ loyalty is understandable but England need to turn the page at scrum half.

Hard to disagree on any of that TBH.

Re. the discipline, there are obvious issues to resolve, but this weekend I can’t help but feel several of those penalties were harsh and a lot were Ireland bettering us, not us deliberately trying to gain an advantage. By my reckoning, probably 25% of the penalties against us were at least debatable.

For example, as I recall, there were 4 scrum penalties. The first one for early push 5m out was very harsh. For the others, I thought it was more a case of Furlong dominating Mako. In other words, Mako wasn’t deliberately cheating - he was simply being beaten. That’s a personnel issue, not a discipline issue.

Add in a couple of odd calls too ... for the penalty against Daly I’m pretty sure he calls the mark, while Farrell’s ‘roll’ was laughable. He rolled once. The Irish seemed to be able to do so with impunity so I’m not sure why it warranted a penalty?

I’m not saying there isn’t an issue, but I don’t know how easy it is to resolve when in a lot of cases it’s not as cut and dried as it is with say Jonny Hill ...

At best, he needs some serious coaching, but probably it’s more likely he will just be dropped and he can’t complain as he keeps giving away dumb penalties.

I know I bore people with dripping on about Jones but can I pose a question associated with his retention/departure?

The player assessment above is one way of proceeding. Is it the right starting point though and is Jones capable of being objective enough (especially based on his record of stubbornly sticking to favourites)?

Might a new regime starting with a blank sheet of paper be a better way forward?

Based on the report that there is a break-out clause in Jones's contract meaning that it will not be horrendously expensive to ditch him how will the RFU make a judgement?

Robson a 6 the Tory rag showing their normal levels of low quality journalism.

Slade a 7 is also ridiculous unless the piece was written by his mother. I thought Marchant had a couple of nice touches Vs Ireland in difficult circumstances and would give him more than a 5. Could be a natural replacement for Joseph who we could have probably done with this 6N even if he is getting on a bit and isn't quite the threat he was. I'd like to see Marchant given more chances to impress, hopefully one we see on the summer tour.

I don't want to massively defend Jones because though I respect his achievements I'm not his biggest fan I would point to 2018 where he made some tough calls and rebuilt the squad after a poor 6N campaign.

Scrumhead wrote:Hard to disagree on any of that TBH.

Re. the discipline, there are obvious issues to resolve, but this weekend I can’t help but feel several of those penalties were harsh and a lot were Ireland bettering us, not us deliberately trying to gain an advantage. By my reckoning, probably 25% of the penalties against us were at least debatable.

For example, as I recall, there were 4 scrum penalties. The first one for early push 5m out was very harsh. For the others, I thought it was more a case of Furlong dominating Mako. In other words, Mako wasn’t deliberately cheating - he was simply being beaten. That’s a personnel issue, not a discipline issue.

Add in a couple of odd calls too ... for the penalty against Daly I’m pretty sure he calls the mark, while Farrell’s ‘roll’ was laughable. He rolled once. The Irish seemed to be able to do so with impunity so I’m not sure why it warranted a penalty?

I’m not saying there isn’t an issue, but I don’t know how easy it is to resolve when in a lot of cases it’s not as cut and dried as it is with say Jonny Hill ...

At best, he needs some serious coaching, but probably it’s more likely he will just be dropped and he can’t complain as he keeps giving away dumb penalties.

There is always a continuum of discipline problems, some forced some unforced some 'unlucky'....but which ever way you look at it, its killed us- and because of rep, and poor ref management, we will always lose any benefit of doubt. There were probably more forced by Ireland than v Scotalnd/Wales, and that points to a different problem- but the root cause, if we fail to dominate in every area, it goes tits up. Add in some stupidity- and yes point at Hill, but also point at Maro a number of times- and you are in bad shape; the successive penalties have killed us more than anything else imo.

Banquo wrote: There is always a continuum of discipline problems, some forced some unforced some 'unlucky'....but which ever way you look at it, its killed us- and because of rep, and poor ref management, we will always lose any benefit of doubt. There were probably more forced by Ireland than v Scotalnd/Wales, and that points to a different problem- but the root cause, if we fail to dominate in every area, it goes tits up. Add in some stupidity- and yes point at Hill, but also point at Maro a number of times- and you are in bad shape; the successive penalties have killed us more than anything else imo.

One bad game re discipline would be annoying but defensible. The 2nd one gets beyond irritating and the 3rd is . . . .

Mikey Brown wrote:Did the Genge/Sexton thing happen towards the end of the game right in front of the posts? I think there was something going on with Martin where he had his scrum cap ripped off? Not sure if that was part of the same incident?

Both Itoje and Martin finish the game without their scrum caps. Not sure if that was intentional or because they got pulled off. Should be a penalty at least for pulling on a scrum cap, you wouldn't grab someone's hair.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: There is always a continuum of discipline problems, some forced some unforced some 'unlucky'....but which ever way you look at it, its killed us- and because of rep, and poor ref management, we will always lose any benefit of doubt. There were probably more forced by Ireland than v Scotalnd/Wales, and that points to a different problem- but the root cause, if we fail to dominate in every area, it goes tits up. Add in some stupidity- and yes point at Hill, but also point at Maro a number of times- and you are in bad shape; the successive penalties have killed us more than anything else imo.

One bad game re discipline would be annoying but defensible. The 2nd one gets beyond irritating and the 3rd is . . . .

I think most games this season have been poor tbh, even shipped 12 v France.

FKAS wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Did the Genge/Sexton thing happen towards the end of the game right in front of the posts? I think there was something going on with Martin where he had his scrum cap ripped off? Not sure if that was part of the same incident?

Both Itoje and Martin finish the game without their scrum caps. Not sure if that was intentional or because they got pulled off. Should be a penalty at least for pulling on a scrum cap, you wouldn't grab someone's hair.

Should be penalised for putting one on if you are back

The Telegraph's ratings are maybe a touch high here or there. The Times marks are more around 5/6 mark and seem a bit more realistic.
Irrespective of markings, the question needs to be asked: just who has enhanced their reputation this 6N's?
We had a solid core of established, experienced players, many in their prime, and yet i'm struggling to think of any that have looked a better player now than they did at the WC.
Not only that but the newer players havent exactly shone either.

fivepointer wrote:The Telegraph's ratings are maybe a touch high here or there. The Times marks are more around 5/6 mark and seem a bit more realistic.
Irrespective of markings, the question needs to be asked: just who has enhanced their reputation this 6N's?
We had a solid core of established, experienced players, many in their prime, and yet i'm struggling to think of any that have looked a better player now than they did at the WC.
Not only that but the newer players havent exactly shone either.

I can think of one... unlucky Willis. Was looking very good, so unlucky. I really hope he turns into a great player and not another Rees.

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Did the Genge/Sexton thing happen towards the end of the game right in front of the posts? I think there was something going on with Martin where he had his scrum cap ripped off? Not sure if that was part of the same incident?

Both Itoje and Martin finish the game without their scrum caps. Not sure if that was intentional or because they got pulled off. Should be a penalty at least for pulling on a scrum cap, you wouldn't grab someone's hair.

Should be penalised for putting one on if you are back

I used to wear one as a 9, back in the days when I had flowing locks it was easier to help keep hair out of the way and stop people being able to pull on one's hair.

fivepointer wrote: Not only that but the newer players havent exactly shone either.

And that's been a problem, amusing too when Eddie is being ranted at for not picking enough new players. It's almost like stepping up to test rugby isn't easy.

That said I do have a query about our attack system still, perhaps too much a moot point given the penalties, but if we are going to play much faster as a norm then do we still need such a league based approach to attack, or can we simplify and pick just two runners in the centres and move the ball in more basic fashion. Sadly we don't seem to have a Fickou we can pick, and it's not clear Lawrence is much of a runner, and it's not clear who the other options should be. Maybe simplifying would make us too easy to defend, but it might also make our own game easier to support