Wasps vs Bath Sunday 25th 3pm

[I R Geech]

If Umaga can just cut out those hiccups, he's a hell of a player.

Was going to say he looked very sharp, but in fact he looks like Sideshow Bob. But still sharp.

[Peej]

He's still way too loose for me. You can't have a player that is only two thirds effective a third of the season when the track is hard enough for running rugby.

[Digby]

Starting out it's better they overplay, though I have the luxury of not caring what that does to Wasps. Even as is he consistently looks better than Smith to me

[Raggs]

The first six Nations he was with England he came back and put in a tactical kicking masterclass. It's definitely in hislocker but its not what wasps are trying to do. The score from our 22 really shows that. There wasn't that much on but we still tried to play it.

[Digby]

Better for a team to overplay too earlier in its development. Bar it is wasting time when it comes to the likes of Launchbury

[Scrumhead]

Starting out it's better they overplay, though I have the luxury of not caring what that does to Wasps. Even as is he consistently looks better than Smith to me

In that case you need your eyes tested ...

Smith’s game management has come on leaps and bounds, his goal kicking is very good and he’s still got the running game to be an individual threat. He’s consistently good, if not excellent week-in, week-out.

The same simply cannot be said for Umaga. He’s a talent, but to say he ‘consistently looks better than Smith’ is plainly not the case. For starters, consistent is a very poor choice of words. Secondly, he doesn’t kick goals and thirdly, his last two games have been his only decent ones in ages ...

[Stom]

Starting out it's better they overplay, though I have the luxury of not caring what that does to Wasps. Even as is he consistently looks better than Smith to me

In that case you need your eyes tested ...

Smith’s game management has come on leaps and bounds, his goal kicking is very good and he’s still got the running game to be an individual threat. He’s consistently good, if not excellent week-in, week-out.

The same simply cannot be said for Umaga. He’s a talent, but to say he ‘consistently looks better than Smith’ is plainly not the case. For starters, consistent is a very poor choice of words. Secondly, he doesn’t kick goals and thirdly, his last two games have been his only decent ones in ages ...

Yeah, I don't get the comment, either. I don't see any area where Umaga comes close to Smith, tbh. Smith is better at everything Umaga does well and the areas that Smith is poor at, Umaga is even worse at.

Luckily all those areas are in things the average 22 year old will cut out over time. So I'm happy to sit and wait until these 2 are ready for England.

[Digby]

Starting out it's better they overplay, though I have the luxury of not caring what that does to Wasps. Even as is he consistently looks better than Smith to me

In that case you need your eyes tested ...

Smith’s game management has come on leaps and bounds, his goal kicking is very good and he’s still got the running game to be an individual threat. He’s consistently good, if not excellent week-in, week-out.

The same simply cannot be said for Umaga. He’s a talent, but to say he ‘consistently looks better than Smith’ is plainly not the case. For starters, consistent is a very poor choice of words. Secondly, he doesn’t kick goals and thirdly, his last two games have been his only decent ones in ages ...

I don't watch Quins very often, when I do he's got talent, but he's often absent from proceedings (although a lot of that is much goes through Care and Smith is waiting for the ball he wants) and his first instinct still seems to be to look for himself (something one might once said of Ford and Cipriani)

Umaga from the off is more about how his side's shape stretches the others

[Scrumhead]

OK, but if you don’t watch someone regularly, how can you really make a comment on their consistency?

I rate Umaga, but when you talk about being ‘absent from proceedings’ you could easily apply that to the majority of his appearances this season. Including a few where he’s been conspicuously poor. With BT offering full coverage for the last little while, I think I’ve watched all of his games this season (and last).

The other thing I didn’t mention is that Smith’s defence is vastly superior. Umaga is mostly very lightweight to the point of being a turnstile. Smith isn’t Wilkinson, but he’s a very solid tackler and a determined defender. There was a great example last season where he chased back to make a great cover tackle on a Saints player (Tom Collins maybe) who looked for all money like he was scoring in the corner.

I like both, but there’s no doubt in my mind who is more consistent and the better player.

[TheNomad]

I like both, but there’s no doubt in my mind who is more consistent and the better player.

Totally agree. Umaga is a talented player, for sure.

But if you had a debate about who the top 3 10s in the league had been this year, Smith would be in the running - in fact he'd have a decent shout of winning it.

Umaga wouldn't be in the conversation

[Peej]

Umaga does kick, and kicks well from the floor but his kicking from hand is proper ropey.

I'm a Wasps fan and I think Smith is streets ahead of Umaga.

[Digby]

OK, but if you don’t watch someone regularly, how can you really make a comment on their consistency?

I rate Umaga, but when you talk about being ‘absent from proceedings’ you could easily apply that to the majority of his appearances this season. Including a few where he’s been conspicuously poor. With BT offering full coverage for the last little while, I think I’ve watched all of his games this season (and last).

The other thing I didn’t mention is that Smith’s defence is vastly superior. Umaga is mostly very lightweight to the point of being a turnstile. Smith isn’t Wilkinson, but he’s a very solid tackler and a determined defender. There was a great example last season where he chased back to make a great cover tackle on a Saints player (Tom Collins maybe) who looked for all money like he was scoring in the corner.

I like both, but there’s no doubt in my mind who is more consistent and the better player.

A chasing back cover tackle isn't much of anything to hang a hat on when it comes to defending in the line, Hodgson was happy making those tackles

I could easily be getting this wrong, I often do. But Umaga looks much more involved in defence, and Smith just needs to stop jumping around like all he grew up watching was Campo hitch kicks.

If you'd rather I say every time I see them play rather than consistently to me then fine, although it's probably not quite every time, Smith does impress me sometimes, just not as much as his fluffers

[Mikey Brown]

I’d get the irritation at the hitch kicks if he didn’t have such absurd tackle evasion stats.

The BT fanboying is pretty annoying though I’ll grant you that. I didn’t think he had a particularly great game on Saturday and Dallaglio was obviously struggling for a MOTM contender with so many ropey performances out there, so he pretty much got it just for the try.

Then again, he’s a player you can actually look to and expect a moment of magic like that when it’s needed.

[Digby]

He was barely there on Saturday until he won the match, which isn't nothing, though he didn't get enough credit for setting up the OHC score he then later merely offset.

The thing with Smith for me is he sees what he wants to see, not what is. Oftentimes that's good enough, I've said before even really good 10s are probably only making the best choice around half the time. Smith is doing things pretty quickly and he's certainly positive, and he's got talent. It just wouldn't occur to me to think about him in terms of England

[Scrumhead]

But Umaga does? Even when he’s been anonymous or outright poor this season until 2wks ago?

As for tackling, I can’t reconcile your assertion that Umaga is more ‘involved’ in defence with what I’ve seen from him. He can tackle, but all too often he waves people through.

Sadly, the highlight reels I can find don’t show any of Smith’s defence, but it’s not all cover tackles. The point I was making is that he’ll front up in the line, but also has the heart to chase back on an apparently lost cause.

I am not a ‘fluffier’ for Smith. Just responding to your claim that Umaga is consistently better.

[Oakboy]

Interesting debate about FHs but what matters (unfortunately) is Jones's opinion. Previously, he had Farrell, Ford, Smith as 1,2,3. Then, he shifted (for no good reason that I could see) to Farrell, Ford, Umaga. Of course, he never anticipated any scenario where Smith or Umaga would actually play!

[FKAS]

But Umaga does? Even when he’s been anonymous or outright poor this season until 2wks ago?

As for tackling, I can’t reconcile your assertion that Umaga is more ‘involved’ in defence with what I’ve seen from him. He can tackle, but all too often he waves people through.

The highlights reel for Umaga will show him doing everything because well he can. That's not the issues, defensively if he added a bit of weight and got a bit more aggressive he could play 12. The issue with Umaga is that in the same game he can both an International and Championship level player. He can win or lose you the game in equal measure.

Smith seems to be rounding into a good player. I think he actually needs a little international exposure this summer just to aid his development. Smith looks the closest to international level at the minute he just needs to tighten up the tactical elements of his game and show he can play a variety of game plans.

[Timbo]

Umaga is currently nowhere near the 10 that Smith is. Whatever about the nuance of how they both run their teams and inject themselves into the game, Umaga makes far more basic technical mistakes, has a very ropey tactical kicking game (his touch finders from penalties are often abysmal) and his defence is optional a lot of the time. His goal kicking is a way short of Smith’s too.

There’s a reason he was dropped for both an 18 and 40 year old for big chunks of the season.

[fivepointer]

Surprised there's much of a debate tbh. For me, Smith is the superior player and far further along in his development than Umaga. I dont see it as a close call.

[Magic_sponge]

They're both good/very good goal kickers, but I've been watching umaga quite closely this season and his defense really is I unacceptable, particularly if he wants to play international level. As mentioned before, no one is saying Smith is a brick wall, but he's definitely not as permeable as umaga.

The number of times he's not found touch with his penalties is unacceptable too.

If he lined up for England I would not be feeling confident at all. His attacking benefits over others (if any) are nowhere near his (very real) defensive frailties, for me anyway.

[switchskier]

I agree and think that Smith looks a much more complete player, but then I've never really rated Umaga and think Atkinson might be ahead of him this time next year. I do think that Smith is a little hampered by the fact that quin's play off nine so much. He gets the ball when Care thinks that it's on for him to run/create, rather than being the senior partner that runs the game.

[Which Tyler]

Smith is beginning to look a very, very good fly half; and I'd be happy to have him in England contention. He's becoming a bit of a Ford Jr in that he has all the skills, and can do the solo stuff, and is a very good reader of a game of rugby - hopefully he'll continue to develop that side, as that's where the game management really comes into its own - and he's well on his way there.

Umage is becoming more of a Twelvetrees Jr (minus about 3 stone) in that he can do it all; defence, attack, game management, miracle passes / offloads - but he's almost as likely to hit the deck with his miracle pass as he is the breadbasket.

I'd currently have Simmonds ahead of either - but I can see Smith overtaking him ahead of the next RWC.

[Peej]

I think those are good analogies (particularly the Umaga/12T one). I think Simmonds and Smith could offer a really interesting contrast, and push each other to develop their games along the lines of what the other does well.

[fivepointer]

Launchbury will require surgery and faces being out of action for at least six months. Wasps confirmed he sustained “a complete rupture” of his anterior cruciate ligament during the victory against Bath on Sunday.

Horrendous ill luck for Joe.

[Digby]

Back for the AIs hopefully