RugbyRebels

FKAS wrote:

Timbo wrote:So think I may under estimated Steward. Even in the first half when the rest of the team were poor he was playing excellently. If there are tests this summer then he should get capped.

Yeah it was particularly noticeable how in the second half when Ulster wanted to get back into the game their go to was to kick for compete. Steward just took them all and Mathewson kept kicking shorter and shorter to try and stop Steward.

Steward's always rock solid at the back but we're starting to see some slowly come more and more into the Tigers attack and act as the secondary kicker and playmaker.

It's amazing that Ford looks incredible as soon as his team show any hint of forward momentum. Now if we can only play some decent attacking rugby on a regular basis we might make the most of our mostly highly paid player.

What 10 ever looks good when the pack struggle/slow ball?

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Timbo wrote:So think I may under estimated Steward. Even in the first half when the rest of the team were poor he was playing excellently. If there are tests this summer then he should get capped.

Yeah it was particularly noticeable how in the second half when Ulster wanted to get back into the game their go to was to kick for compete. Steward just took them all and Mathewson kept kicking shorter and shorter to try and stop Steward.

Steward's always rock solid at the back but we're starting to see some slowly come more and more into the Tigers attack and act as the secondary kicker and playmaker.

It's amazing that Ford looks incredible as soon as his team show any hint of forward momentum. Now if we can only play some decent attacking rugby on a regular basis we might make the most of our mostly highly paid player.

What 10 ever looks good when the pack struggle/slow ball?

Biggar?

Biggar doesn't look good with fast ball, his default appearance is the weight of the world has been placed on his shoulder and here he is acting like Atlas whilst ungrateful fans lambast him for not being Phil Bennett

FKAS wrote:There's Hodge coming through at Chiefs who looks like he's got the boot of Steward plus running ability of Freeman. Parton at LI has been good as well. Going to be a lot of competition for that 15 jersey and it's not like we can just move them to the wing because the wing talent is looking healthy as well.

So we're up to 5 U23 FBs named now, and TdG still doesn't get a look in.

Mr Mwenda wrote:And just think, what if Watson had ever been played fullback!

Maybe that's the problem - maybe people still think that the Bath 15 shirt is for the right winger? Meaning that we only ever play with a full back for the last 20 minutes, and there's no way Jack Walker will ever play FB for England.

Digby wrote:Biggar doesn't look good with fast ball, his default appearance is the weight of the world has been placed on his shoulder and here he is acting like Atlas whilst ungrateful fans lambast him for not being Phil Bennett

Mr Mwenda wrote:And just think, what if Watson had ever been played fullback!

Bath played him there the other day actually and it didn’t look like he was very comfortable fielding kicks.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:
Yeah it was particularly noticeable how in the second half when Ulster wanted to get back into the game their go to was to kick for compete. Steward just took them all and Mathewson kept kicking shorter and shorter to try and stop Steward.

Steward's always rock solid at the back but we're starting to see some slowly come more and more into the Tigers attack and act as the secondary kicker and playmaker.

It's amazing that Ford looks incredible as soon as his team show any hint of forward momentum. Now if we can only play some decent attacking rugby on a regular basis we might make the most of our mostly highly paid player.

What 10 ever looks good when the pack struggle/slow ball?

Biggar?

I like Dan Biggar a lot for what he does on the pitch- bar some of the 'victimhood'- and he has a great reputation for being a top club bloke. He has struggled when Wales or Saints have struggled up front.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Mr Mwenda wrote:And just think, what if Watson had ever been played fullback!

Bath played him there the other day actually and it didn’t look like he was very comfortable fielding kicks.

Have to say- and I know its a running joke- but he has never looked that convincing at 15 for me...he's a better winger imo. To Which's point, TDG looks a better 15.

twitchy wrote:

FKAS wrote:Brainless yellow from Tom Youngs

He is one of the stupidest players in the league.

That said, I need to watch the second half. I switched over to watch the boxing.

If it helps, Youngs went off at half-time.

I don't begrudge him the yellow too much - we were on a team warning, he'd tried to go up quickly and bought the scrum-half's definitely not a dummy from the base, and at that point decided he may as well kill the ball and deny them the advantage since he was likely going off anyway. He wasn't the one that got us into that position being fired at on our goal line.

I'm still baffled how the Leicester team that played that first 20 minutes and the Leicester team that played the second half were broadly the same people. Seems incomprehensible.

Puja

Charlie Clare is a player I must have seen dozens of times over the years, but yesterday was the first time I ever actually thought, “oh, he’s pretty decent”. Has he suddenly got a lot better under Borthwick or something?

Steward on 1120 premiership minutes this season which will surely be up their with most minutes in the league so far, and it's telling his confidence in the air is incredible

The sheer height he is reaching now last night one of his jumps his arse hit lavanini in the head, it's a great thing to have especially now with how careful opposition has to be with players in the air.

I also think his game management is growing a lot he doesn't have the speed that the other 15's have but he's starting to bring in more technical stuff to his game like that grubber but Stockdale in a lose lose situation and gave tigers a 5m scrum, or starting to slot into the 13 channel more and putting in some nice passing.


Heyes for me though is the biggest improvement for Tigers, the fact Borthwick is regularly bringing him on at half time shows it, not many coaches would be keen to sub a 250+ club caps and 95 International caps Tighthead who is on top of the scrums but Heyes isn't losing out on the scrums and is bring his extra work around the park with him.

Timbo wrote:Charlie Clare is a player I must have seen dozens of times over the years, but yesterday was the first time I ever actually thought, “oh, he’s pretty decent”. Has he suddenly got a lot better under Borthwick or something?

There's been a few like that - players like Porter, Potter, Wells, de Bruin who are never going to be world beaters but who we're starting to get a decent tune from. Tigers fans are still reeling in shock at the fact that Johnny McPhilips was very good for two consecutive games. Borthwick is starting to appear like he's worth the hype.

Puja

Banquo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

Mr Mwenda wrote:And just think, what if Watson had ever been played fullback!

Bath played him there the other day actually and it didn’t look like he was very comfortable fielding kicks.

Have to say- and I know its a running joke- but he has never looked that convincing at 15 for me...he's a better winger imo. To Which's point, TDG looks a better 15.

Is TDG injured at the minute or just down the pecking order? He's played some 10 previously will be stay at 15 or be a bit of a hybrid and play some 10?

Watson's a good fullback when the weather is good, not sure I'd want him back there in winter though. It's why I'm so happy with Steward coming through because he's just such a safe pair of hands at the back whatever the weather. His ability to cover so much of the backfield means Tigers don't need to drop as many players into the backfield as they did before on defence which helps our still slightly iffy defence.

TdG is injured, and not played FH since debut. He's a FB now, but I'm the Alex Goode mold, who could do a job at 10 in an emergency.

Watson is a very good fullback full stop. Some trouble under the high ball in 1 game doesn't change that.

Puja wrote:

Timbo wrote:Charlie Clare is a player I must have seen dozens of times over the years, but yesterday was the first time I ever actually thought, “oh, he’s pretty decent”. Has he suddenly got a lot better under Borthwick or something?

There's been a few like that - players like Porter, Potter, Wells, de Bruin who are never going to be world beaters but who we're starting to get a decent tune from. Tigers fans are still reeling in shock at the fact that Johnny McPhilips was very good for two consecutive games. Borthwick is starting to appear like he's worth the hype.

Puja

There's been a few games when I've looked at the team sheet and thought we've got no chance Borthwick has written this one off. Then we suddenly appear to be competitive. Bristol away was one where I expected us to have 40 or 50 put on us but we were competitive for nearly all that game and finished with Bristol defending hard on their goal line. Connacht in the previous round in Europe another one, a mix of our firsts and seconds put them to the sword and the finishing front row which looked so strong were all 21. The players have bought in to what Borthwick is bringing to the club and now we are playing as a squad rather than as a team.

Clare has gone from what many assumed was a Championship player just filling a squad role to actually playing well and looking comfortable at Prem level. Yes, he's never going to ever get close to international recognition but as a squad man he's ideal. McPhillips well quite frankly of have driven him to anyone willing to take him off our books before Christmas. Since Christmas I think he's the second best 10 at the club and before last night arguably the form option (I presume he's got a knock currently and hence not on the bench). Outstanding turn around.

Just wait until Borthwick gets the attack coach he wants...

Which Tyler wrote:TdG is injured, and not played FH since debut. He's a FB now, but I'm the Alex Goode mold, who could do a job at 10 in an emergency.

Watson is a very good fullback full stop. Some trouble under the high ball in 1 game doesn't change that.

I was thinking that his main strength is running the ball back hence in good weather he's likely to be more dangerous than in the mid winter when it's slippy and the grounds are heavier. He's not the first and won't be the last opposition fullback to find Ford's swirling kicks and Stewards airborne abilities tough to deal with.

TDG, you never know. Once he's acclimatised to senior rugby from 15 and got used to being the secondary playmaker he might start to get chances to step into the 10 role. That's how Wasps brought Cips on. Having a playmaker at 15 is always a good option, I like to see it personally. Allows more direct options for your midfield though Bath have Redpath at 12 who offers both anyway.

Which Tyler wrote:TdG is injured, and not played FH since debut. He's a FB now, but I'm the Alex Goode mold, who could do a job at 10 in an emergency.

Watson is a very good fullback full stop. Some trouble under the high ball in 1 game doesn't change that.

. I'm a big fan, but he's never totally convinced me at 15......tbh, I know we joke about it, but he does get moved about between wing and 15, which doesn't help him settle there. This was before spiral-bombgate to be clear.

Tigersman wrote:Steward on 1120 premiership minutes this season which will surely be up their with most minutes in the league so far, and it's telling his confidence in the air is incredible

The sheer height he is reaching now last night one of his jumps his arse hit lavanini in the head, it's a great thing to have especially now with how careful opposition has to be with players in the air.

I also think his game management is growing a lot he doesn't have the speed that the other 15's have but he's starting to bring in more technical stuff to his game like that grubber but Stockdale in a lose lose situation and gave tigers a 5m scrum, or starting to slot into the 13 channel more and putting in some nice passing.


Heyes for me though is the biggest improvement for Tigers, the fact Borthwick is regularly bringing him on at half time shows it, not many coaches would be keen to sub a 250+ club caps and 95 International caps Tighthead who is on top of the scrums but Heyes isn't losing out on the scrums and is bring his extra work around the park with him.

For me though, its the speed that is the key to the next step up. But it is possible to get quicker.

Banquo wrote: For me though, its the speed that is the key to the next step up. But it is possible to get quicker.

I agree I also think that the 15 doesn't need to be that quick though.
Should really have the speed to get around a 13 for me as a baseline, as outside of that positional play and awareness can cover for lack of out and out speed.

Tigersman wrote:

Banquo wrote: For me though, its the speed that is the key to the next step up. But it is possible to get quicker.

I agree I also think that the 15 doesn't need to be that quick though.
Should really have the speed to get around a 13 for me as a baseline, as outside of that positional play and awareness can cover for lack of out and out speed.

Well you'd have to be pretty pacy to get round most international 13's, at least my version of what an intl 13 needs to have. Speed at 15 is imo essential at intl level, especially in attack; that's just my view, other seems to want their 15's as a playmaker, but I'm not in that camp; I'd want excellent positioning, pace and a good boot as a minimum

Tigersman wrote:

Banquo wrote: For me though, its the speed that is the key to the next step up. But it is possible to get quicker.

I agree I also think that the 15 doesn't need to be that quick though.
Should really have the speed to get around a 13 for me as a baseline, as outside of that positional play and awareness can cover for lack of out and out speed.

I don't think you need to be rapid to play 15, obviously being slow probably won't do it but Steward is certainly not slow and in fact I'd argue that the long stride of his actually makes him deceptively quick.

As with most things it's about balance in the back three for me. You need speed in there somewhere but depending on the tactics you might need that more on the wing particularly if there's a lot of kick chasing. If you've got a winger that likes to come off his wing and look for work having a solid fullback frees that player to go and look for that work more than does a fullback that is less safe at the back because you need to consider the need to be able to support him. Depending on the midfield you might want a more dedicated playmaker, if you've got two playmakers in the midfield you might want more of a strike runner.

I think picking a combination that works more than the best players is important and something England got wrong during the 6N.

FKAS wrote:

Tigersman wrote:

Banquo wrote: For me though, its the speed that is the key to the next step up. But it is possible to get quicker.

I agree I also think that the 15 doesn't need to be that quick though.
Should really have the speed to get around a 13 for me as a baseline, as outside of that positional play and awareness can cover for lack of out and out speed.

I don't think you need to be rapid to play 15, obviously being slow probably won't do it but Steward is certainly not slow and in fact I'd argue that the slow stride of his actually makes him deceptively quick.

As with most things it's about balance in the back three for me. You need speed in there somewhere but depending on the tactics you might need that more on the wing particularly if there's a lot of kick chasing. If you've got a winger that likes to come off his wing and look for work having a solid fullback frees that player to go and look for that work more than does a fullback that is less safe at the back because you need to consider the need to be able to support him. Depending on the midfield you might want a more dedicated playmaker, if you've got two playmakers in the midfield you might want more of a strike runner.

I think picking a combination that works more than the best players is important and something England got wrong during the 6N.

You don't 'need' to be, but if you aren't, you'll be a tad average at international level imo. The most vulnerable part of any defence remains the edge at 13, and a rapid 15 really still can exploit that. The 15 as playmaker model just doesn't do it for me- its overcomplicating life tbh. Of course you need balance, but to be a top intl 15 you need gas (and positional sense etc), as do the wingers. It may be we have different definitions of rapid.
Obviously the combination is important.

Depends how you define gas I suppose. Ben Smith was a phenomenal fullback but was he rapid? Nope, obviously he was far from slow I'm not suggesting that. Positioning and skill were far more important. Halfpenny has never been the quickest or anywhere close, Rob Kearney again not rapid and SA made good use of Francois Steyn in the back three.

You won't get away with being slow but neither do you need to be Johnny May. For fullback positioning and skillset are more important for me which is why I'm not the biggest fan of Daly at 15. I also quite like a playmaker at 15 as long as you don't sacrifice fullback skillset to get it, it means you can then select a more balanced midfield should you not have a good playmaking centre or if you want to go more direct.

IDK I just don't think you need to be rapid to beat a international 13?
Like how many truly quick 13's are there that are also defensively good?

FKAS wrote:Depends how you define gas I suppose. Ben Smith was a phenomenal fullback but was he rapid? Nope, obviously he was far from slow I'm not suggesting that. Positioning and skill were far more important. Halfpenny has never been the quickest or anywhere close, Rob Kearney again not rapid and SA made good use of Francois Steyn in the back three.

You won't get away with being slow but neither do you need to be Johnny May. For fullback positioning and skillset are more important for me which is why I'm not the biggest fan of Daly at 15. I also quite like a playmaker at 15 as long as you don't sacrifice fullback skillset to get it, it means you can then select a more balanced midfield should you not have a good playmaking centre or if you want to go more direct.

Ben Smith was rapid enough to play wing many times and notch up 39 tries. Halfpenny also quick enough to play wing. Francois Steyn wasn't a very good 15 tbh.

I think you've missed my point though- positioning and skillset I've already said are pre requisites; but to be a really top 15, gas (and as I said above, we may have different definitions of that) will be very important. Daly is an interesting one- his gas and attacking skillset really do/did mark him out going forward, but he's never learned his trade at 15. Its a position you really have to learn.

On the playmaker piece, if the 15 is doing it, you then need to manufacture the deep runner/use the blindside wing; imo any decent centre will have enough skills to be at first receiver if needed, but today's thinking seems to discount this.

Tigersman wrote:IDK I just don't think you need to be rapid to beat a international 13?
Like how many truly quick 13's are there that are also defensively good?

Plenty. Its handy to be quick at 13 for defence alone, as I've alluded to before. You may have a different model of 13 to me to be fair- I like a quick runner with good hands and defence there. The great 13's are always pretty rapid- even Conrad Smith was hardly slow.

BTW...if they are defensively good, then they won't be beaten by an average paced 15, its kind of intrinsic to your statement.

Also- this isn't about knocking Steward, who I really rate- it was you who said he wasn't very pacy.