Tigers Vs Quins

[Scrumhead]

Game management from Quins has been poor. Tigers down 2 men and they play in their own 22? Crazy.

TBH, I think we were just trying to keep the ball to find space against 13 men. Not crazy, we just did a very bad job of it.

Overall, I’d agree Tigers were probably the slightly better team. Smith didn’t have a vintage game in front of Eddie which was a bit of a shame. He wasn’t bad and played a big role in several tries, but unfortunately, stuff like the charge down and a rare off day from the tee might work against.

On the other hand, I though Marchant was excellent in attack and defence.

We were missing both props though. Kick too touch and then contest, Tigers were missing their primary lifters. Tigers won the yellow cards period 3 nil because of keeping the ball in the Quins 22. Over playing a 15-13 advantage seems to be a problem for a few teams in recent weeks.

Marchant was exceptional. He really needs to be more involved with England. Green looked dangerous at 15, far more than I've seen him on the wing. Good sign for Quins going forward

I don’t disagree with you re. kicking to touch. That would have been a much better option. I was just arguing that our attempt to ‘keep the ball alive’ was poorly executed rather than ‘crazy’.

[Oakboy]

George Ford should really be in the Lions' squad. If Gatland is seeing Farrell as a 12, then he should have named him as a 12, not a 10, left out a spare midfielder (say Daly, whose form did not really merit selection), and included Ford as a 10. Who cares if Daly can kick 50 yard penalties. If he is not on the pitch (because of selection of the best players) when such penalties are awarded, he can't attempt them.
In any case, Farrell has done nothing of note to warrant his selection as a FH (or even, in the eyes of many, as a 12.)

I did not see this game but I agree wholeheartedly with that in general terms. It would be good to see Ford operating at top level with a different head coach, captain and tactical plan. As I keep saying when I get stick for being critical, there is no argument about what Ford can do, only what he does do.

[Digby]

Top level, Gats, does not compute.

And on Ford, you might have an argument about whether what he's doing makes him the best 10 in the world, but absolute worst case he's in the top 2-3, the issues lie significantly elsewhere (which isn't to say Ford couldn't be better or that he doesn't make mistakes)

[FKAS]

George Ford should really be in the Lions' squad. If Gatland is seeing Farrell as a 12, then he should have named him as a 12, not a 10, left out a spare midfielder (say Daly, whose form did not really merit selection), and included Ford as a 10. Who cares if Daly can kick 50 yard penalties. If he is not on the pitch (because of selection of the best players) when such penalties are awarded, he can't attempt them.
In any case, Farrell has done nothing of note to warrant his selection as a FH (or even, in the eyes of many, as a 12.)

Indeed. That little pass to Scott for the first try had no rights being broadcast before the watershed. The ability to pick the right pass, courage to take the ball right to the gainline and invite defenders onto him, with the skill to disguise and then execute...oof, it was downright sexual.

Puja

And won't get any mass showings on highlight reels just like the two massive passes through traffic against Ulster. Now had Cipriani done that they'd be all over social media with the commentators tugging themselves dry over it. Maybe Ford's biggest problem is PR, maybe he should hire a firm to put some content out there and build up his image. Nah he's a hard working northerner he wouldn't go for that.

Ford's form has been very good recently, he's long been able to work with Youngs and get us into the right areas of the field but now we actually look like we can do something when we get there. Keep given Ford runners to select from and we'll keep scoring tries. Youngs performance will I'm sure be overlooked and called slow but it wasn't and Gatland may look at that ruefully wishing Benny wasn't such a family man.

[Banquo]

And on Ford, you might have an argument about whether what he's doing makes him the best 10 in the world, but absolute worst case he's in the top 2-3, the issues lie significantly elsewhere (which isn't to say Ford couldn't be better or that he doesn't make mistakes)

yep.

[Oakboy]

And on Ford, you might have an argument about whether what he's doing makes him the best 10 in the world, but absolute worst case he's in the top 2-3, the issues lie significantly elsewhere (which isn't to say Ford couldn't be better or that he doesn't make mistakes)

yep.

Why does Gatland disagree, I wonder?

[Digby]

And on Ford, you might have an argument about whether what he's doing makes him the best 10 in the world, but absolute worst case he's in the top 2-3, the issues lie significantly elsewhere (which isn't to say Ford couldn't be better or that he doesn't make mistakes)

yep.

Why does Gatland disagree, I wonder?

There is in this the query as to whether he simply disagrees or whether he merely disagrees when it comes to assembling a scratch side who are going to have little to nothing going on with the attack side of their game? Even then I'd suggest you're merely highlighting the need for the player most likely to pick the killer pass, but it is some mollifying line of thinking that you're hoping to employ a limited version even when it comes to Gatball, if one was inclined to be kind to Gats.

I'm not inclined to be kind to Gats, but I am pleased Ford isn't wasting his time on the jamboree so I'm happy to let this one slide

[Digby]

Maybe Ford's biggest problem is PR, maybe he should hire a firm to put some content out there and build up his image. Nah he's a hard working northerner he wouldn't go for that.

Say what you will for the Family Ford, they're not shy when it comes to self-belief and self-promotion

[Banquo]

And on Ford, you might have an argument about whether what he's doing makes him the best 10 in the world, but absolute worst case he's in the top 2-3, the issues lie significantly elsewhere (which isn't to say Ford couldn't be better or that he doesn't make mistakes)

yep.

Why does Gatland disagree, I wonder?

look at who he HAS picked. Plus see Digby's comments re limited attacking plan.

[Banquo]

Maybe Ford's biggest problem is PR, maybe he should hire a firm to put some content out there and build up his image. Nah he's a hard working northerner he wouldn't go for that.

Say what you will for the Family Ford, they're not shy when it comes to self-belief and self-promotion

Well yes, and not sure what 'problem' Ford has tbh. He has 76 caps and rising.

[Oakboy]

yep.

Why does Gatland disagree, I wonder?

look at who he HAS picked. Plus see Digby's comments re limited attacking plan.

Yet, he kicks more than any other FH in the Premiership (according to BT Sport stats the other day), indicating that he is no stranger to carrying out limited game plans. He also appears comfortable with Jones's dictatorial style of management which indicates that Gatland and he should be a fit. Is he just perceived as weak in the tackle compared with those picked? If he is not 'suitable' to play against SA he hardly rates a place in the higher echelons of world FHs.

I'm not especially bothered by any of it. This board rates Ford higher than punditry, perhaps. After all, his absence from the jamboree list hardly got a mention in the press that I saw.

[Digby]

Kicking is not inherently limited

[Tigersman]

This board does rate Ford more than the punditry.

The trouble is the punditry doesn't rate Ford at all (IMO all down to his seasons at Bath where he was flakey at times), You look at the fanfare Cips got at Glous, Faz got at Saracens and Smith at Quins, whereas really the last 3 seasons Ford has constantly been in the top 2 10's in the league despite it also being one of the worst teams in the league.

It never gets mentioned that his kicking % has been higher than Farrell's the last 3/4 seasons but Farrell is the Iceman and Ford is the "it's a tricky kick under pressure will he make it"

[Oakboy]

This board does rate Ford more than the punditry.

The trouble is the punditry doesn't rate Ford at all (IMO all down to his seasons at Bath where he was flakey at times), You look at the fanfare Cips got at Glous, Faz got at Saracens and Smith at Quins, whereas really the last 3 seasons Ford has constantly been in the top 2 10's in the league despite it also being one of the worst teams in the league.

It never gets mentioned that his kicking % has been higher than Farrell's the last 3/4 seasons but Farrell is the Iceman and Ford is the "it's a tricky kick under pressure will he make it"

Farrell V Ford - or Andrew v Barnes - or JW v CH. Opinion divided! I would just love to see Ford in a top international team for a run of games without Youngs and Farrell and with no restrictive instructions.

[Digby]

Ford does play in a top international side. And if you want to see him sans restrictions there's simply no point wanting to see him hampered by Gats.

Also Youngs has been good for a period now, Ford was pretty much the best 10 in the 6N, and Youngs would have been very close to Dupont, probably ending Le Crunch but maybe falling behind overall. Farrell, well that's an issue if you want a fluid attack, he's okay, he's not great

[FKAS]

Maybe Ford's biggest problem is PR, maybe he should hire a firm to put some content out there and build up his image. Nah he's a hard working northerner he wouldn't go for that.

Say what you will for the Family Ford, they're not shy when it comes to self-belief and self-promotion

His dad has always been a bit fan of self promotion in the media but George, not really. He's not come out and talking Lions at any point but you can bet your house he was desperate to go.

When Ford has played at 10 without Farrell England have looked fine. It has just been a very infrequent occurrence.

The reason the pundits don't wax lyrical about Ford is because he's the kind of flyhalf that plays the percentages. He's not massively flashy. Maybe he should through some out of the back passes, the old chicken wing stuff just so people notice the bots of brilliance he does bring to the party.

[Mr Mwenda]

I think he's only ever craved adulation from rugby rebels.

[Banquo]

I'm not sure what the fuss here is about. Ford is mostly the starting 10, holding off some decent competition. And to FKAS, he's not especially a percentage 10, its just his passing execution is generally top notch, he makes difficult stuff look easy. If its about not being picked for the Lions, then its not really connected with how good he is...Gatland has gone horses for courses, which on a short tour with a scratch set of players, makes sense, even if some looks strange.

[FKAS]

. And to FKAS, he's not especially a percentage 10, its just his passing execution is generally top notch, he makes difficult stuff look easy.

The percentage thing was because someone mentioned he kicks the most from hand in the Prem. He doesn't mess about playing in his own half he looks to get the territory and once he's got that looks to play.

Very much agree with his passing skill levels. He's done a fabulous job with not a lot in recent years I'm hoping that's going to change and we'll see Tigers pulling teams apart like the did to Quins in the first half.

[Banquo]

. And to FKAS, he's not especially a percentage 10, its just his passing execution is generally top notch, he makes difficult stuff look easy.

The percentage thing was because someone mentioned he kicks the most from hand in the Prem. He doesn't mess about playing in his own half he looks to get the territory and once he's got that looks to play.

Very much agree with his passing skill levels. He's done a fabulous job with not a lot in recent years I'm hoping that's going to change and we'll see Tigers pulling teams apart like the did to Quins in the first half.

Standard tbh, doesn't say he's a percentage player, just sensible.

[Oakboy]

With Jones and now, Borthwick, how much does he play how he wants to play?

[FKAS]

. And to FKAS, he's not especially a percentage 10, its just his passing execution is generally top notch, he makes difficult stuff look easy.

The percentage thing was because someone mentioned he kicks the most from hand in the Prem. He doesn't mess about playing in his own half he looks to get the territory and once he's got that looks to play.

Very much agree with his passing skill levels. He's done a fabulous job with not a lot in recent years I'm hoping that's going to change and we'll see Tigers pulling teams apart like the did to Quins in the first half.

Standard tbh, doesn't say he's a percentage player, just sensible.

Sensible and playing the percentages, pretty much the same thing for me. Smith didn't play the percentages and neither did Care. Was a major factor between winning and losing for me on the day.

Oakboy, I think we saw how Ford likes to play on Saturday in the first half. Multiple runners on different angles for him to select from. Ford can do that close to the line and 9 times out of 10 select the right option. It's a tough way to play as you need player in sync and with enough rugby brains and commitment to keep running those angles phase after phase and Tigers haven't had that for years.

That's not the England template for attack. England like wave after wave of quick attack to create a shortage of numbers and then go wide. It's a far simpler system and not the same but more akin to what Sarries do which makes me think Eddie is designing for simplicity so he can choose between Farrell and Ford. Farrell can't play the way Ford played in the first half Vs Quins. Farrell also likes to play almost entirely off either 9 or 10 whereas we've seen Ford happily switching between the two during phase play which is why I think Eddie favours him at 10.

[switchskier]

And on Ford, you might have an argument about whether what he's doing makes him the best 10 in the world, but absolute worst case he's in the top 2-3, the issues lie significantly elsewhere (which isn't to say Ford couldn't be better or that he doesn't make mistakes)

yep.

Why does Gatland disagree, I wonder?

Maybe he just thinks that Russell does what Ford does, but I'd currently doing it better, and there's only room for one of them on tour?

[Digby]

yep.

Why does Gatland disagree, I wonder?

Maybe he just thinks that Russell does what Ford does, but I'd currently doing it better, and there's only room for one of them on tour?

I might not always agree with Gats, but I don't have him down as being a class A drug abusing fantasist. If anything I'd like there to be a bit more fantasy is how he goes about things.

[Cameo]

I think the funny thing with pundits and Ford is that they don't rate or not rate him, they only talk about him in comparison to Farrell. Farrell is calm under pressure therefore Ford is flaky. Farrell is great in defence therefore Ford is weak. Farrell never misses goal kicks therefore Ford can't kick.

Considering how many caps he has it's amazing how rarely pre-match build up focuses on what he needs to do. Farrell is just seen as running the team. That must have counted against him in Gatland's eyes.

I think he's great and would have in in the Lions squad. It'dbe nice to see Russell compete with another 10 who views his role as finding space and putting people through it (albeit in slightly different ways) rather than rehash the usual attacking 10 Vs kicking 10 argument. That argument normally massives underrated Ford and Russell's kicking games and Russell's (at least) tackling too.