England vs Canada - Sat 10th July

[Mellsblue]

Ludlow is a solid player and clearly a good leader but who is more likely to/would you rather be in the squad for the next RWC, him or Hill and/or B Curry?* If both aren’t unavailable, it’s (yet another) strange call from Jones.

*It’s a rhetorical question, Diggers.

[Puja]

Interesting that there's no lock cover on the bench. One would assume that Dombrandt would move up into the second row if it was needed, as he's the only player with any semi-recent experience there. You wonder if Eddie's looking at the gaping void of international-quality locks behind Itoje, Launch, Lawes, and I guess we're counting Jonny Hill, and seeing if the likes of THill and Dombrandt might not do a job as all-rounders.

Absolutely thrilled to see Wells get a go. I don't think he'll ever be a regular international, but there were points in his development I didn't think he'd be a regular premiership player and his improvement has just been so much more than I'd thought him capable of. Hopefully he's got some more still inside him and he can prove me wrong again.

Very pleased that we're tying down Kelly to England, although I'm not sure he's anywhere near a finished article or worthy of a cap yet. Fun to see an England side with 5 Leicester players in it again though!

I still don't get Ludlow. Or picking Slade when Marchant is screaming to be selected. Or THill and BCurry's removal from the XXIII, although I guess that could be injury/COVID. But overall, it looks like a good, fun side.

Puja


ETA. Is that all of the uncapped names in the squad getting a go now?
ETETA. Nope. Kenningham (although likely COVIDed out of one this game), Munga, Oghre, Rodd (!), Bassett, Mitchell, Ojomoh are still uncapped. Amazed that Rodd's not even on the bench to keep him from the Scots. Guess it's more of Eddie's tough love and making people earn their places, but seems risky when, even if we might not need him ourselves, we certainly don't want to play against him in future.

[Mellsblue]

Hadn’t clocked Wells is selected. The Goldington Rd Finishing School produces yet again.

[jngf]

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 39 caps)
12. Dan Kelly (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
11. Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 1 cap)
9. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 1 cap)

1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 29 caps)
2. Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
3. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
4. Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
6. Lewis Ludlow (C) (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
8. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, uncapped)

FINISHERS
16. Curtis Langdon (Sale Sharks, 1 cap)
17. Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
18. Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
19. Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
20. Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 13 caps)
22. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
23. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 5 caps)

[jngf]

I'm happy to see Dombrandt being given a (very imo) long overdue start at 8. Would have preferred LudLAM rather than Ludlow at 6 (primarily based on their respective play against USA last week, though still think their both quality players).

Would have had Ben Curry and Ben Earl on bench to cover back row between them. As mentioned elsewhere Dombrandt to move up to second row if cover needed there, with Earl or Curry coming on at 7, with Underhill shifting to 6 and Ludlam to 8.

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare, though now doubt there some candidates in premiership e.g. Isiekwe , Ribbans and Moon who can jump up the queue. (I know Isiekwe been tried at second row before but I wouldn't be against looking at him at 6 at test level in order to fit a flier like Simmonds at 8 ).

[Puja]

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare.

Agreed, and I'm far from convinced that JHill deserves to be up in that company as well. With Launch being injury-prone and Lawes playing most of his rugby on the flank nowadays, we're very, very short of quality there. I'd endorse attempts to see whether THill, Martin, or Dombrandt can do a job further up, cause otherwise we're left hoping Munga comes good, Isiekwe comes back to lock, or Kpoku stops punching below his weight.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare.

Agreed, and I'm far from convinced that JHill deserves to be up in that company as well. With Launch being injury-prone and Lawes playing most of his rugby on the flank nowadays, we're very, very short of quality there. I'd endorse attempts to see whether THill, Martin, or Dombrandt can do a job further up, cause otherwise we're left hoping Munga comes good, Isiekwe comes back to lock, or Kpoku stops punching below his weight.

Puja

Will Carrick-Smith hasn’t found a club, as far as I know. Could he be the RFU’s first centrally contracted player?

[Tom Moore]

I'm happy to see Dombrandt being given a (very imo) long overdue start at 8. Would have preferred LudLAM rather than Ludlow at 6 (primarily based on their respective play against USA last week, though still think their both quality players).

Would have had Ben Curry and Ben Earl on bench to cover back row between them. As mentioned elsewhere Dombrandt to move up to second row if cover needed there, with Earl or Curry coming on at 7, with Underhill shifting to 6 and Ludlam to 8.

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare, though now doubt there some candidates in premiership e.g. Isiekwe , Ribbans and Moon who can jump up the queue. (I know Isiekwe been tried at second row before but I wouldn't be against looking at him at 6 at test level in order to fit a flier like Simmonds at 8 ).

Don't think Earl is in the squad.

[jngf]

I'm happy to see Dombrandt being given a (very imo) long overdue start at 8. Would have preferred LudLAM rather than Ludlow at 6 (primarily based on their respective play against USA last week, though still think their both quality players).

Would have had Ben Curry and Ben Earl on bench to cover back row between them. As mentioned elsewhere Dombrandt to move up to second row if cover needed there, with Earl or Curry coming on at 7, with Underhill shifting to 6 and Ludlam to 8.

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare, though now doubt there some candidates in premiership e.g. Isiekwe , Ribbans and Moon who can jump up the queue. (I know Isiekwe been tried at second row before but I wouldn't be against looking at him at 6 at test level in order to fit a flier like Simmonds at 8 ).

Don't think Earl is in the squad.

You’re right but is it red tape that’s preventing a recall ?

[Puja]

I'm happy to see Dombrandt being given a (very imo) long overdue start at 8. Would have preferred LudLAM rather than Ludlow at 6 (primarily based on their respective play against USA last week, though still think their both quality players).

Would have had Ben Curry and Ben Earl on bench to cover back row between them. As mentioned elsewhere Dombrandt to move up to second row if cover needed there, with Earl or Curry coming on at 7, with Underhill shifting to 6 and Ludlam to 8.

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare, though now doubt there some candidates in premiership e.g. Isiekwe , Ribbans and Moon who can jump up the queue. (I know Isiekwe been tried at second row before but I wouldn't be against looking at him at 6 at test level in order to fit a flier like Simmonds at 8 ).

Don't think Earl is in the squad.

You’re right but is it red tape that’s preventing a recall ?

I believe it's entirely selection - whether that be because Eddie thinks he needs a rest or because Eddie has gone off him is to be ascertained. Either way, he's not available right now.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare.

Agreed, and I'm far from convinced that JHill deserves to be up in that company as well. With Launch being injury-prone and Lawes playing most of his rugby on the flank nowadays, we're very, very short of quality there. I'd endorse attempts to see whether THill, Martin, or Dombrandt can do a job further up, cause otherwise we're left hoping Munga comes good, Isiekwe comes back to lock, or Kpoku stops punching below his weight.

Puja

I agree. As it stands, Kruis walks back in to the starting XV as soon as he returns from Japan but we seem to be hitting a fallow period where none of Itoje’s contemporaries (and I’m including Ewels and Hill) or subsequent age grade internationals have really been up to standard or made a real breakthrough.

Looking at the U20 WC locks from when we won in 2016 to 2019 (to allow a bit of time for development), none of Huw Taylor, Stan South (2016), Justin Clegg, Josh Caulfield (2017),
Joel Kpoku, Sam Lewis (2018) and Alex Coles (along with Kpoku) in 2019. None of them have really kicked on that much.

Clegg did seem to make a proper breakthrough with Worcester last season, but whether he can develop in to a test standard lock is another question. Kpoku has had loads of hype without really delivering on it. Coles is developing nicely enough but is a couple of years younger so it might be a bit soon to judge. Safe to say we won’t be calling up South, Caulfield or Lewis or fighting Wales for Huw Taylor.

The cupboard isn’t totally bare, there’s just no-one who immediately fits the bill.

Ribbans could be a good option and but for suspension would almost certainly have been picked.

Isiekwe has a golden opportunity to be Itoje’s partner at club and test level if he chooses to focus on lock.

Martin has loads of potential and with all of the back row players now at Tigers, I would imagine he’ll be focusing on lock too.

I am intrigued by the idea of Ted Hill at lock. He has the size and the skill set, so it could work …

[Tom Moore]

For me this series has reinforced my view that beyond Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje and Hill the England second row cupboard is rather threadbare.

Agreed, and I'm far from convinced that JHill deserves to be up in that company as well. With Launch being injury-prone and Lawes playing most of his rugby on the flank nowadays, we're very, very short of quality there. I'd endorse attempts to see whether THill, Martin, or Dombrandt can do a job further up, cause otherwise we're left hoping Munga comes good, Isiekwe comes back to lock, or Kpoku stops punching below his weight.

Puja

I agree. As it stands, Kruis walks back in to the starting XV as soon as he returns from Japan but we seem to be hitting a fallow period where none of Itoje’s contemporaries (and I’m including Ewels and Hill) or subsequent age grade internationals have really been up to standard or made a real breakthrough.

Looking at the U20 WC locks from when we won in 2016 to 2019 (to allow a bit of time for development), none of Huw Taylor, Stan South (2016), Justin Clegg, Josh Caulfield (2017),
Joel Kpoku, Sam Lewis (2018) and Alex Coles (along with Kpoku) in 2019. None of them have really kicked on that much.

Clegg did seem to make a proper breakthrough with Worcester last season, but whether he can develop in to a test standard lock is another question. Kpoku has had loads of hype without really delivering on it. Coles is developing nicely enough but is a couple of years younger so it might be a bit soon to judge. Safe to say we won’t be calling up South, Caulfield or Lewis or fighting Wales for Huw Taylor.

The cupboard isn’t totally bare, there’s just no-one who immediately fits the bill.

Ribbans could be a good option and but for suspension would almost certainly have been picked.

Isiekwe has a golden opportunity to be Itoje’s partner at club and test level if he chooses to focus on lock.

Martin has loads of potential and with all of the back row players now at Tigers, I would imagine he’ll be focusing on lock too.

I am intrigued by the idea of Ted Hill at lock. He has the size and the skill set, so it could work …

The worry for me with Martin and Hill is that the things that have made them come to prominence are all the things I'd be concerned that the extra scrummaging demands of being in the second row could affect. However, it might well be sensible for both of them to try, given the paucity of young locks coming through you've alluded to and the distinctly higher amount of quality back-rowers of a similar age.

[Scrumhead]

Maybe, although my understanding is that Martin was almost exclusively a lock at age grade and has been brought through as flanker to gain experience of senior rugby while he physically matures.

Hill is slightly different. He swapped between 4 and 6 earlier in his career but has only really been a blindside flanker since his senior breakthrough. I’m not sure whether his appearances at lock at the end of last season were as a result of other locks being unavailable or driven by him or possibly by England?

[Digby]

I don't know if Kruis does walk back into the side. He is a very good player, but so are Lawes and Launchbury. If anything one might argue L&L are better players, but equally one might argue Kruis forms a better partnership with Itoje and adds some power in the tight five grunt work which we lack with some of our more mobile selections.

[Which Tyler]

I don't know if Kruis does walk back into the side. He is a very good player, but so are Lawes and Launchbury.

It's been a perpetual debate for the last 6ish years. And yet we always look stronger with Kruis at lock than without; even if no-one (or at least, none of us backs) can quite work out why

[Puja]

CANADA’S ROSTER TO FACE ENGLAND:

Forwards:

1. DJUSTICE SEARS-DURU - Oakville, ON - Seattle Seawolves
2. ANDREW QUATTRIN - Holland Landing, ON - Toronto Arrows
3. JAKE ILNICKI - Williams Lake, BC - Seattle Seawolves
4. REEGAN O’GORMAN - Vancouver, BC - Austin Gilgronis
5. CONOR KEYS - Stittsville, ON - Rugby ATL
6. COREY THOMAS - Broome, Australia – LA Giltinis
7. LUCAS RUMBALL - Scarborough, ON - Toronto Arrows
8. SIAKI VIKILANI - Burnaby, BC – Toronto Arrows

Backs:

9. ROSS BRAUDE - Pretoria, SA - Toronto Arrows
10. PETER NELSON - Dungannon, UK - Stade Aurillacois Cantal Auvergne
11. KAINOA LLOYD - Mississauga, ON - RC National Development Academy
12. LACHLAN KRATZ - Victoria, BC – NOLA Gold
13. BEN LESAGE - Calgary, AB - Toronto Arrows
14. COLE DAVIS - Calgary, AB - Austin Gilgronis
15. COOPER COATS - Halifax, NS – Canada 7s

Reserves:

16. ERIC HOWARD - Ottawa, ON - NOLA Gold
17. COLE KEITH - Sussex, NB - Toronto Arrows
18. LIAM MURRAY - Langley, BC – Houston SaberCats
19. DONALD CARSON - Delta, BC – University of BC
20. MICHAEL SMITH - White Rock, BC - San Diego Legion
21. QUINN NGAWATI - Victoria, BC – Rugby United New York
22. WILLIAM PERCILLIER - Victoria, BC - Stade Francais
23. ROBBIE POVEY - Calgary, AB - Houston SaberCats


We should be putting 60 points on that lot, possibly more. They're missing Ardron, Duguid, Olmstead, Heaton, Baillie, Tierney, Hassler, O'Leary, Beukeboom, Larsen... it's verging on a Canada A side and they're not that good a team to begin with. I'd say only the 1, 2, and 7 of the pack are first choice.

Puja

[Digby]

I mean they can call the bench reserves if they must, even if we all know it's finishers, but roster?

I've seen some of those sides play, not the first idea who any of the players are

[Mellsblue]

I've seen some of those sides play,

Which platform is showing the University of British Columbia games?

[Digby]

I've seen some of those sides play,

Which platform is showing the University of British Columbia games?

I was thinking more Seattle Seahawks in MLR, and that's a bad enough standard.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I've seen some of those sides play,

Which platform is showing the University of British Columbia games?

I was thinking more Seattle Seahawks in MLR, and that's a bad enough standard.

There's an NFL side playing MLR?

[Digby]

Which platform is showing the University of British Columbia games?

I was thinking more Seattle Seahawks in MLR, and that's a bad enough standard.

There's an NFL side playing MLR?

Ah, Wolves not Hawks. Either way they're not very good at rugby, but hopefully only yet

[Mikey Brown]

Seattle Seawolves?

[Puja]

Seattle Seawolves?

Yes? They're a Major League Rugby side.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

What the fuck is a sea wolf?

[Puja]

What the fuck is a sea wolf?

Pacific Northwestern Native American term for a killer whale.

Puja